Starfish PrimeThere are many things that we do not see from pics.. MiG-23Ms were a major improvement over MiG-21s, alone due to engine spool up times. While it took something like 18 secs to get to maximum engine rpm with MiG-21F and some 13 secs with MiG-21MF, MiG-23M only needed 3 secs. That is a huge advantage even in close combat, even if the handling itself might have been worse..
Why don’t we criticize Tornado ADV using the same arguments, I don’t think it handled any better than a MiG-23M.
But it had functional MRAAMs.
Nothing wrong with fighters just soviets did not deploy there latest air to air systems. A more determined leadership with better systems could have changed the war sooner in such directions to drag rest of middleaat into it. Its not the weapon systems but political system that was incapable to conduct successful operation.
Wow, nobody has ever accused the Soviets of being non-determined before.
Starfish PrimeYes, a quite well known problem.. The same issue as with R-27s in Ethiopia..
So basically they’re all duds unless you use them immediately. Not particularly useful.
Starfish PrimeBut the creeps with cameras who photograph every bit of interesting hardware at every defence show from every possible angle are usually Chinese. When I was much younger, they were usually Russian.
There’s effectively Cold War with China but nobody has admitted it yet.
Starfish PrimeInteresting read on R-77.
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2011/09/auditor-slams-navys-selection-of-r-77.html
Auditor Slams Navy’s Selection Of R-77 Missile
India’s national auditor, in a report released yesterday, has said the Indian Navy chose to buy the Vympel R-77 BVR missile for the MiG-29K weapons package despite adverse observations about the missile’s serviceability by the air force at least six years previously. Here’s what the auditor has observed:
“A critical armament for the MiG 29K aircraft is a BVR missile, which augments the ‘Beyond Visual Range’ capability of the aircraft. The [R-77], one such BVR missile was acquired by the Indian Air Force between 1999 and 2002. However, the serviceability status of the missile, in evidence prior to the Navy contract of March 2006, has been poor as brought out in paragraph No. 3.2 of the Report of the C&AG of India, No. CA 18 of 2008-09. High rate of unserviceability was noticed by IAF since 1999 from the first lot of missiles received. By November 2005, IAF decided against refurbishing the missiles “X” after life expiry and started considering a suitable replacement for future procurements.
Nearly half of Russian air-to-air missiles with IAF have homing, ageing problems: CAG report
Putting a big question mark on the performance of the Russian beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missiles with the Indian Air Force, an audit report by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has noted that nearly half the missiles tested either did not home in on targets during evaluations or failed ground tests because they were ageing much before their shelf lives.
The R 77 (RVV-AE) BVR missiles, fitted on board the Su-30 MKIs, MiG-29s and MiG-21 Bisons, were bought from Russia starting 1996. More than 2,000 missiles were ordered after the Kargil conflict and 1,000 have been delivered.
The CAG report, which will be released soon, is based on evaluations of the missile — its range is close to 90 km — during ground tests, inspections and test firing by the IAF. The missiles were bought at a “cost of Rs 2 crore each” but their failure during tests, says the CAG report, has affected the “operational preparedness” of the IAF.
“All figures in the report are based on air force records. Everything is verified by the IAF,” an official said.
The problem with the missiles was referred to Russia and several teams subsequently visited India to rectify faults. IAF officers familiar with the missiles confirmed that this has been a problem area for long. “It is a known fact that the missiles do not work as we would like them to. Periodic tests that are carried out when they are in storage show their dismal state. We also have problems with spare parts,” said a retired officer who was closely associated with the matter.
Starfish PrimeOthers have made similar observations, so I don’t see why I’m being singled out.
Starfish PrimeYou seem to pick what suits you and drop the rest.
Your colours are there for everyone to see. However, the unfortunate part for you is that people far less prejudiced than you -and in the right profession- have given the -relative- topic, its due attention.
I suggest you read the “Fighter Design from the soviet perspective” by Ward. Reading this will perhaps help you being less of a tool.
How is using the whole of post-WWII air combat statistics picking what suits me? I think it’s more the case that the opposing side doesn’t have anything to pick.
Starfish PrimeI haven’t figured out what this means yet but:
https://www.f35.com/assets/uploads/documents/RIAT-16-UK-Brief.pdf
Starfish PrimeWith the right spreadsheet we can prove that none of these planes can even fly.
…which is about what he is achieving by “proving” the F-35 can’t reach ranges it has already demonstrated the ability to reach.
It was the Atlantic crossing case that got me, where he tried extrapolate a range based on the fact they’d refuelled roughly every 750km.
Starfish Primeapples to oranges
Russia makes popular airplanes. does that mean they make other popular manufactures products too?
Do you own or even name any thing Russia makes that is manufactured?
China makes things alright but rarely designs them.
Can I name anything that Russia manufactures? Are you kidding me? Rockets for one. Their own defence equipment for two. Satellites for three.
http://rbth.com/articles/2012/03/16/russias_12_top_inventions_that_changed_the_world_15089.html
China’s idea of an economy is either making stuff designed in the west, or stealing patents, or reverse engineering stuff.
Starfish PrimeIndustrial espionage is a part of capitalism, so…
Patent office would disagree.
Starfish PrimeSoviet didnot install S300 in Afghanistan border areas to create no fly zone nor they dropped same quantity of bombs that US dropped in Vietnam and Soviets were dealing with newer radars and SAMs like stingers at the time. Soviet didnot use the strong points of there power. It was dysfunctional effort from commies where equal representation in power desirable to republics than competence. Just look at the location of factories.
More excuses. What was wrong with using their fighters to shoot the planes down?
Starfish PrimeYou mean like the reliable US when they claimed WMD in Iraq? The war in Afganistan? The intervention in Libya?
Man that single line says more about your political and cultural lineage than anything else could!
That’s politics and I don’t think they ever lied about Afghanistan or Libya. More importantly the WMD lie was eventually uncovered in the space of a few years when all they found was a few old shells containing chemical agent. Covering up how airmen died for over 40 years however is a conspiracy theory akin to 9/11 tinfoil hatters. It’s only possible in the likes of North Korea.
Starfish PrimeA comment worth a moron.. A kill becomes confirmed when it’s confirmed. That’s why it’s called confirmed.. It accounts for everyone, I can’t see why Americans and Israelis should be treated differently.
:confused: What exactly can’t be hidden that easily? US have lost 3,244 aircraft over Vietnam, VPAF could have claimed five times as much as they did and no one would care..
If you can’t see the difference between a western claim and a claim by the likes of North Korea then I pity you.
Except it would have to be hidden by every person who had knowledge, wing men, commanders, ground crew etc. for over 40 years.
Starfish PrimeIsrael would have won against Syria even flying Mysteres.. It’s really a no brainer of what the true reasons are/were..
http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars
Except the MiG-23MS can’t fight on WVR. This monkey model (which you alleged did not exist) was the single most useless fighter aircraft throughout the whole modern history of aerial combat. No WVR, no BVR, nothing..
Right, they weren’t.. yet you still continue to babble about them as confirmed kills bcs it suits your agenda. Why not take Syrian unconfirmed claims, as well?
That is only one of the theories.. Other sources indicate that they might have run into a rain of container ammo having been dropped by the MLDs on climb. Generally, Soviet pilots were forbidden to engage PAF on encounter, anyway..
All I can see are those two MiG-23MLDs we have already mentioned.. Funny how your 10:0 can easily become 2:1, eh? 🙂
Don’t say.. South Africans or Israelis have fought Soviets? Talk about rewritten history..
Okay, so Iranians vs Iraqis. Pakistanis vs Soviet and Indians. There’s simply too many instances to make excuses.
Don’t you ever get tired of being wrong about every single thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23#Variants
MiG-23MS
(“Flogger-E”) This was an export variant, as the ’70s MiG-23M was considered too advanced to be exported to Third World countries. It was otherwise similar to MiG-23M, but it had the S-21 standard weapon system, with a RP-22SM (NATO: “Jay Bird”) radar in a smaller radome, and the IRST was removed. Obviously, this variant had no BVR capability, and the only air-to-air missiles it was capable of using were the R-3S (NATO: AA-2a “Atoll”) and R-60 (NATO: AA-8 “Aphid”) IR-guided missiles and the R-3R (NATO: AA-2d “Atoll”) semi-active radar homing (SARH) missile.
http://www.skytamer.com/MiG-23BN.html
Early export variants lack war reserve mode in their radar.
Show me any evidence of 42 downed F-15s or F-16s from the Bekaa Valley Air War and I might consider it. Even Comical Ali would laugh at that claim.
You don’t need permission to defend yourself.
Not really, that Su-25 is clearly Soviet too. Funny how facts remain facts. I suppose in your version a MiG-23 somehow out-manoeuvred an F-16.:highly_amused:
You’re strawmanning. What I actually said was, funny how all the proxies using western gear were competent and all those using Soviet gear weren’t… including the Soviets themselves in several cases (Pakistan, Vietnam, Korea). All a big coincidence huh?
Sign In
