Except that the shape looks nothing like an F-4 from any direction.

I think what’s implied is that it’s a (war)ship, not an F-4.

Firstly they are not Kurdish rebels, its worlds accepted PKK terrorist organisation and they gets govermental support from the mostly known “developed countries”!!! And i can say you that its not so hard to kill them if they would only live in Turkey, maybe you know where they have camps and how they survive! So you only compare with apples and pears, if you were right why soviets left from Afghanistan and why Afghanistan is still not stable now? And i can give you too many examples more, so reality doesn’t changes accept or not!!!

No problem with labels, you prefer terrorists? fine (though not accurate since not all Kurds are PKK), but it doesn’t negate my argument.

The Kurds living in Turkey are a few millions, not sure what you mean by “if they would only live in Turkey”. :rolleyes:

So in the end you agree that even a powerful army (soviets) cannot subdue ANY opponent. There is always cost in money, equipment and human life. It’s hardly as you put it “I can only say to you that the Turkey has the all power and the sources to destroy all its enemies if the war is the only way to do”. I would call it a rather bold statement.

Seriously, Greeks helping the Syrians against NATO backed Turkey? Not a hope in hell, not even against Turkey without NATO support, would the Greeks assist the Syrians.

There was a time just before the end of cold war when things were actually as you just described themas impossible.

The year was 1987, March, with high tension between the two countries due to a disagreement as to how aegean sea should be split over the search for oil. Turkey was threatening to send the Sismik search vessel to begin testing, while Greece via then PM A. Papandreou threatened to sink it in response. The situation was getting worse because NATO was not willing to intervene, and none of the two countries was willing to stand down (Turkey a democracy in paper, run by generals in reality). It was one of the very few times in modern Greek history that there was a full level mobilisitation of the armed forces and war appeared to be more possible than ever.

At the peak of the tension, the socialist Papandreou sends his FM Karolos Papoulias (today Greece’s president) in Sofia to hand personally a letter to Bulgaria’s president Zivkov, a communist. The letter asked for Bulgaria to withdraw its armored divisions from the Greek-Bulgarian borders, and move them to the Turkish-Bulgarian ones. Zivkov then replies “tell my friend that he has nothing to worry from Bulgaria and can move whatever he wants of his forces from the Greek-Bulgarian borders, Bulgaria will not move against Greece”. This trip by Papoulias was intentionally not kept secret. It was an unprecedented military alliance between a NATO member and a WP member, causing major reaction. At the same time Papandreou himself travels to Damascus, meets with Syrian leader about the same matter. The result is expectable, Syria mobilises its forces in its borders with Turkey, since Papandreou is well connected in the Arab world for reasons not relevant at this point.

Finally, the US ELINT/SIGINT base in Nea Makri, near Athens, is taken over and all American senior officers are removed from their post per US-Greece agreement for the use of the base… in time of war. Also, two Type 209 subs in NATO excersice Dogfish are urgently recalled. Reagan then realises that the situation is getting out of hand and is seriously facing NATO look like fools to the world.

The rest is history. Two years later, Papandreou fails to reelect.

Now, for the opposite scenario, would Greece help Turkey, as fellow NATO member? Depends. This incident has been presented as a clear turkish provocation, so the public will not be happy in helping the aggressor. In addition, such a move, any move to be exact, would have to have the support of a powerful government with a strong leader, however there is no such thing at this time. Instead, there is a fragile coalition led by a heavily questioned PM.

In recent history however, we proved that if we believe it is necessary, we will help a neighbor militarily, even if that neighbor is not friendly. In 2001, when FYROM was in trouble, we sent them helicopters, APCs, military advisers and other supplies. If you think that FYROM is not even NATO member, that answers the questions as to wheather we would help Turkey if they were in trouble or invaded.

The problem is that neither is the case.

PS This is not 1987, and Papandreou is dead long ago.

Straying across an unmarked boundary isn’t breaking in.

Yes, assuming that’s the they things happened.

Even if you believe the Syrian version, the Turkish incursion was like wandering across a corner of an unfenced & unplanted field, not breaking in to a house.

From what has been known so far, there is only one thing Syria can be accused of, maybe: not following procedures and directly firing at an incoming intruder. However, we need to take into consideration special circumstances in the area, such the civil war in Syria, making everyone a little more tense than usual, as well as the recent defection, making certain people even more tense than usual. That’s no secret of course, so to my mind any visitor should be double carefull than he usually is. Especially if he he has plans to fly low next to the coast. It’s like playing with the fire and then whining for getting burnt. I find it hard to sympathise, sorry.

Don’t you realise that you’re proving my point about the inability of Greeks to discuss Turkey rationally?

You are of course entitled to your opinion. If you are happy believing that, it’s fine by me.

A brief incursion into Syrian airspace doesn’t, by itself, constitute an attack. Turkey did not attack Syria.

But of course it doesn’t. It’s obviously an act of friendship and good will. It is after all a well known fact, friends break into other people’s houses to show that they want to be friends. Gee, thanks for pointing that out.

If the video above is true, why would Syrian AAA open fire on an aircraft that far away (would their fire-control radars even be able to lock on to a target that far away?), and onlookers at the beach would not have been able to see the engagement take place. All assuming the video shows what it claims to show.

If the jet was above them and they started firing at it, it wouldn’t be surprising if by its speed at that time alone it crossed some distance of a few nm, especially if the firing merely caused some damage rather than making a single large explosion which would bring it down at once.

Third, where are the parts of the flight over Cyprus? 😉

A few info here for those not familiar: alithia.com.cy/

Basically what they are saying is that the jets were monitoring the National Guard’s major military war game Dimitra held that day. A surprise? Hardly.