HAWX aceIt amazes me immensely how people see only what they want to see, regardless of what is presented in front of them.
What a surprise, the exact same thing can be said for you:
Of course the fact of the matter remains that NO ONE has yet to show a possible internal configuration of those inlets that would allow for the engine to be entirely hidden from view from all frontal angles.
There actually have been proposed configuration, you just fail to accept them. It’s all right, it’s not compulsory to agree, but please, stop polluting this thread.
HAWX aceIt’s very inaccurate actually. Again:
[IMG*]http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7403/intakes2.jpg%5B/IMG]
Red lines = center of the engines.
Red dot = center of the engine.
Red circl = engine inlet.
There is a chance that the two engines are not totally alilgned – it is much appearent in the pictures, but not in this drawing. In this case, the red lines are obviously misplaced.
HAWX aceOne NATO-member with most of its “enemies” in the NATO too or in real a country with huge internal problems to disract the public from own shortcomings. 😉
That’s odd. Serbia was not a NATO-member last time I checked. :rolleyes:
(And that’s the only on-topic comment possible for your post)
HAWX aceA two day visit by the Turkish submarine TCG Dolunay (S-352) Type 209/1200, on its way home after participating in NATO exercise Noble Manta 2010, is not ‘inaugurating a submarine base’.
Such courtesy visits are extremely common. My sister, for example, once flew to Rio de Janeiro to spend a week seeing the city with her boyfriend, while his ship (a Royal Navy frigate) was in port. By your calculation, that makes Rio de Janeiro a Royal Navy base. I think the Brazilian government would be surprised to hear that. 😀
Yes, I know the Turks helped Albania refurbish the base, but that’s no big deal. IIRC they gave about $10 million, which is small change in such matters. It made the place useful again, for its main users – the Albanian navy. IIRC Greece has also given money & technical help to restore the Albanian navy.
You also need to do some research and your sister’s trip is not going to be of much help. 5 minutes’ worth of googling is also not going to help. This story goes back at least 12 years ago.
But, like I told Kapedani, you too are free to believe whatever you want.
HAWX ace@Hawk
As I sad there’s no free launch, it’s just question who is paying it. Chiefs of your AF certainly are not doing it for free because they are stupid, there’s more profound reason…
Regarding air policing, Slovenia and Macedonia certainly are paying it to Italy and Bulgaria, numbers must be in euro millions.
It’s not HAF chiefs that decide, but rather their political supervisor, HAF chiefs only follow orders, or they are “resigned” and go home. And arguably both current and previous governments have actually done some really stupid things in foreign affairs. You need to do a little research beforehand if you are serious in posting about this specific issue.
F35 is in production, awaited by it’s buyers.
F-35 is not in production; Furthermore, while I don’t share the claims that due to major development and financial problems it faces it could even be scrapped, I think it can equally compare to the MiG-35 in terms of sales possibility (possibility, not numbers). In fact, I think it will be much faster and easier for a country to buy and induct MiG-35s than F-35s, as the former is based on an existing proven design.
What do you think about possibility of buying second hand refurbished MiG-29s?
My guess is as good as everyone else’ in here. Personally, I think it’s a strong possibility.
Not to go off topic but…
Thats entirely untrue. A Turkish submarine made a port visit to Durres. Thats about it. Did Greek media actually report this as something else?
You are wrong, it is very true, doesn’t have to do with greek media. But given that you are right on the off topic part, you can believe whatever you want anyway.
HAWX aceThat is not stupid, but in the intrest of both countries too. Greece was and is a main receiver of military assistance programs by the NATO f.e. and has an option to justify it in that case. 😉
Geeez!!! So Greece was and is a main receiver of military assistance programs by the NATO! I could have never thought of that!! Thanx for opening my eyes!:D :D:D
Now, since you clearly don’t have a clue about the military assistance Greece receives (or rather doesn’t receive) in at least the last ten years, and given that this not a Greece related topic, I’ll rest my case.
HAWX ace@Hawk ace
I think that relations between Mao Zedong’s China and communist Albania are irrelevant from our current point in time.
So, China actually does have a history of promoting fighters to eastern Europe. Glad we got that clear.
There’s no such thing as free lunch.
And most definitely, there’s no such thing as free airspace policing. Quite opposite, that service is very expensive one.
That’s odd. I don’t recall HAF receiving a bank check for its services. And one cannot claim Albania is repaying us in terms of military or political cooperation either. Last week the new Turkish submarine base in Albania was inaugurated, and last month albanian court canceled a bilateral deal mutually agreed upon for EEZ in common adriatic waters.
I didn’t understand why did you address Greeks and Italians as stupid ?
It’s obvious.
SAAB has 4 (3 of them NATO members,Russian jets operators) Balkan states as potential buyers (correct me if I’m wrong). And SAAB is most agile and aggressive seller, that’s my impression.
There are three countries in Balkans which are NATO members, and two which have been accepted and are in the process of acquiring full membership. While Gripen does not stand a chance in Greece, it does have good potential in Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia. Saab is as agressive as BAE allows it to be.
Non-NATO member have disadvantage buying NATO (top) equipment, I would say especially in case of Serbia, where NATO forces govern part of it’s territory.
Only a few NATO members and a few MNNA receive top american (NATO that is) equipment. Let alone countries like Serbia.
On other side logical answer would be MiG-29 family, but MiG-35 is technically non existing airplane.
If by “non existing” you mean that there is none in operational status with any air force, it’s as much true as it is irrelevant. The same equally applies to F-35. SFW?
HAWX aceSince joining NATO Croats seem to be giving up on concept of combat aviation , an opinion not without its supporters in Serbia as well.
Of course, that’s an option, but it remains to be seen.
I must admit it makes sense though. Why bother paying to set up an air force and its infrastructure when you can have stupid Greeks and Italians policing you airspace for free?
If Croatia however does get some modern jets, Serbia will have no option but to follow. And when it does follow, it can’t possibly be with the same type the Croatians will get (unless if it’s F-16s for free), just for prestige reasons.
HAWX aceThe article is below.
In fact the two statements do not fully contradict each other. DCNS did not deny the possibility of signing a contract with Greece in previous statement either. It just added that the possibility was decreased. In the most recent statement, they still d not deny the probability.
It’s so funny and sad at the same time, as it can only mean that both of the two major greek defence news sites are lying, each for their own reasons.
The truth as usual lies somewhere in between.
When I read about the following:
…I couldn’t help myself thinking about the FREMM-deal. And the next thing I see on this board is DCNS assuring everybody that the deal is still on…
It is really unbelievable: after jeopardizing their friendship with the Baltic states and the US for a deal with Russia for these LHD’s (combined with a deal to build french engineered power plants in Russia) it now seems like he uses his influence in the EU to help Greece to assure this FREMM deal.
From his point of view, he is doing the best for his country and its industries, he wants to help them sell; it’s not so bad. In fact if he actually does even part of what he promises, perhaps even Dassault could have some hopes.
Nothing should be expected for this year though, even the overoptimistic article at defencenet clearly states 2011 as a contracting year, if all goes well, which it will not.
HAWX aceMiG-35, J-10, JAS-39. The rest – a can of political worms.
Sweden is not EU in a menaingful security sense, Hungary flies it.
Gripen would be ideal, provided uncle Sam does not put any obstacle to its export. OTOH, the other obvious reason for Serbia not getting it, is Croatia getting it, especially Croatia getting it first. Saab would be thrilled to sell to both sides of course, but not the Serbs;
Even dough it will sound like business paradox, I would say that Chinese are in position that allows them to be indifferent in this case.
Their history of non-promoting their fighters on eastern European market is obvious.
Obvious? Are you sure? Such as in the case of Albania maybe?
HAWX aceGreek debt crisis ‘may hinder’ DCNS FREMM deal
Date Posted: 25-Feb-2010
Jane’s Defence Weekly
J A C Lewis JDW Correspondent
ParisFrench warship manufacturer DCNS has conceded that Greece’s debt problems have dashed its hopes of landing a contract to supply the Hellenic Navy with six FREMM frigates.
“The debt crisis obviously complicates the picture,” a DCNS official told Jane’s on 22 February. “Talks are still going on but we now see little chance of a positive outcome in the foreseeable future.”
Earlier in 2010 a senior DCNS official said that Greece was the strongest prospect for a sale worth an estimated EUR2.2 billion (USD2.9 billion), while defence figures in Paris were predicting that a memorandum of understanding on the FREMM deal could be penned when Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou visits Paris, expected by mid-2010.
However, because of revelations concerning the true extent of Greece’s debt, Athens has been downgraded to being just one prospect among others in DCNS’ drive to find export customers for FREMM. France has so far sold only one of the 5,000-ton frigates to Morocco, while Paris is in talks concerning FREMM with Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Algeria. The French Navy has ordered 11 of the new frigates.
Greece stated on 22 January that it had begun negotiations with France on FREMM after excluding German, Dutch and Spanish yards from its competition to acquire six frigates. In April 2008 DCNS forged a partnership with Elefsis Shipyards that called for all six of the hulls to be built in Greece, while DCNS would essentially supply the rest, including propulsion and weapon systems functionality.
According to this article at defencenet.gr, DCNS has rejected Jane’s claims as untrue. Furthermore, it cites a DCNS announcement (which I cannot find at DCNS website) stating not only that Greece is a most important perspective for FREMM and DCNS has an understanding deal with local partner Elefsis Shipyards, but also that ALL SIX frigates will after all be built locally. This is obviously very important for local industry, but at the same time it is very bad in terms of costs and delivery schedules.
What is funny however, is that the editor accuses Jane’s of being American owned (implying it has interest in sabotaging the Greco-french FREMM deal) and of citing an unnamed source, supposedly of DCNS. It is funny because almost every article in defencenet about the ministry of defence cites unnamed sources… It is also funny because on other occasions defencenet has make claims directly based on Jane’s articles!!!
On the other hand, we can see another article at hellenicdefense.gr, (if link dead, check this) the site of archrival magazine Hellenic Defense and Security (recently renamed “and Technology”) which also sites the Jane’s article, but this time as a source of the supreme truth, the ultimate gospel, and suggests that, since Jane’s reports it, nobody doubts that the FREMM deal is to be scrapped, not that there was ever a deal anyway.
Not both of them tell the truth, obviously. While it is true there has been an interstate agreement between Sarkozi and previous government, and although only France has offered willingly to support Greece politically and if needed financially without even being asked, current economic situation does not allow for Greece to proceed rapidly to any major arms deal.
Hint: Stratigiki magazine includes a fancy DCNS advertisement, Hellenic Defense and Technology does not.
And this is Jane’s view after all:
French warship manufacturer DCNS has insisted that it could still sell six FREMM multimission frigates to the Hellenic Navy in a deal estimated at …
04-Mar-2010
http://www4.janes.com/subscribe/jdw/doc_view.jsp?K2DocKey=/content1/janesdata/mags/jdw/history/jdw2010/jdw42456.htm@current&Prod_Name=JDW&QueryText= (surprise-surprise, this time it requires subscription)
HAWX aceWell, I was writing about NA as a project and an airframe in development, like Rafale was in that time. Thus very important for future of both airspace industries, and relevant for today’s story and market. NA cannot be made in Serbia, it’s been 25 years from start of that project their engineers and technicians are not working for military or they are retired or dead. And NATO had very successful reorientation programs for high tech weapons engineers in eastern Europe after their economies and companies fell to pieces, insuring they will not work for third parties.
Nevertheless Mirage 2000 is sadly very good example of inherent problems of France military airspace program. It’s no doubt machine with supreme characteristic, but it’s sales failed to cache it’s practical value. I will not go into this issue making thread in thread, I’ll just say, very bad business model, slow adaptability, non competitive price.
The thing is, M2K’s failure had an effect on Rafale too. M2K’s evolution ended too early, unlike for instance F-16’s, which even though it was developed a decade earlier, it is still in production nonetheless. If the same was with M2K, France would have two excellent frontline fighters, suitable for more budgets.
Military airplane in class of Gripen but cheaper, supported by France as co-seller and Franch technology, sold by Yugoslavia as neutral country (insuring some hostile markets) probably would have been very good seller.
Or maybe not, we’ll never know. Personally, I think the French would have stuck their nose too deep and too much, so as to control its export prospectives. I can hardly think of them agreeing in promoting the NA where M2K or Rafale would be candidate too.
On this topic, my opinion is, they wont buy non of these planes in next ~7-10 years unless someone give them planes for free. But that will not happen.
Yes, but if Serbia is serious about buying new fighters, this is not going to happen any time sooner anyway. In order to begin the procedure, valuate candidates, select one and negotiate the procurement, would take several years as it is. And of course, Serbia would get loans to pay them off, so current economic status is somewhat irrelevant.
if USA didn’t give cheap F-16s to their NATO members on Balkans, why would they give them to Serbia ?
I will agree with this part. It’s the most obvious reason for Serbia not getting F-16s, too many people waiting in line for second hand falcons. Why should Serbia be any different?
Sino-Serbian relations are quite good , but I do not think it will go that far .
I wonder how willing the Serbians would be to sell the NA to Taiwan, had it gone into production… Some people believe they, being neutral, would be willing to sell it to everyone. :diablo:
HAWX aceSince Mig-29/35 is twin engine aircraft, to fly it it cost twice as much in fuel consumption compared to single engine aircraft ( and fuel availability is big issue in SAF)
Being double engined doesn’t have anything to do with fuel consumption, the F-5, Jaguar, Ching Kuo are all double engined, but this doesn’t mean they suck up fuel to no avail. It has to do with the engine itself.
Su series is to big and expensive , so is Rafale and Typhoon.
To be honest , best choice would be to rent few MiG and wait till PAK-FA is available and if politics and price is right go with such option .
The first sentence vastly contradicts the second. So the Su-30 is too big and expensive but the PAK FA is not?
We have seen when Air Force with few modern aircrafts goes against ultra modern air force ……it is one sided contest ….so go with something that can seriously rattle oppositions cage and serve as deterrent.
It will be kind of hard for Serbia to get attacked by NATO again, especially if Serbia is part of it, as is its goal.
HAWX aceAfter the collapse of SU, dessault had been left with very capable, but very expensive aircraft, in category where France as a seller compete with the most powerful states and fighters (and it self- EuroFigter program) in the world. And out there’s only few potential buyers.
Almost a lost battle.
Not really. After the collapse of SU France had really one very capable aircraft, but that was not Rafale, that was Mirage 2000 and its offspring, Mirage 2000-5/9. The problem was it did not secure enough customers so it had minimal chances for development, so its production was shut down as early as 2003. Sadly for the M2K, it was, just like Rafale, too expensive in comparison to its equivalents, such as MiG-29 and F-16.
Untill then, Rafale was not seriously offered in international markets, because it was not ready (main reason it lost early contests).
HAWX aceIs the 2 planes in the middle baby drakens???
ME WANT!
No, these are the “Kites”, proof of concept prototypes built in the fifties.
Baby draken lol 😀
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