HAWX aceGeneral In Haiti Says Worst Disaster He’s Seen
HAWX aceThank you for your reply. I was under the impression that they were actually introduced in service. 🙂
HAWX aceIsn’t this thread about Braziil’s FX-2? And/or how that relates to Rafale?
I’m sure Greece may well have been abused in many defense deals (Dassault delaying integrating SCALP to their OWN platforms would be one, to leave other NATO nations unmentioned), but continuing this tangent doesn’t seem to contribute anything towards the thread topic.The whole sub-text of FX-2 is /100% operational sovereignty/ which means Brazil will do it’s own integration.
For other customers, this would most interestingly bring new, cheaper (than AASM) PGMs, as well as Anti-Radiation and Anti-Surface munitions, in addition to alternative A2A weapons (A/R-Darter). If you have a Rafale, Mectron should be able to sell you their stuff off-the-shelf, with a minor software patch as needed. Send a Christmas card to Dassault/MBDA if you like.
It may seem off-topic, but IMHO it’s not.
This is how it originally started:
Giving Brazil the freedom and knowledge needed to adapt new weapons systems to the winning F-X fighter is the CORNERSTONE of the whole Brazilian Air Force ToT requirement. Not providing this “basic” capability is a sure deal breaker, that is exactly Boeing’s greater vulnerability in this bid. Both the Brazilian Air Force and Government simply DO NOT TRUST US resolve to provide this level of military/technological independence to us now or in the future.
Regards,
Hammer
AFAIK Spain has been allowed to integrate Iris-T and Taurus missiles on it EF-18C/Ds and Australia ASRAAMs on its own. Dassault on the other hand has a past of directly denying the certification of a lot of foreign weapons on its fighters.
So obviously they will have to be commited via a contract the very least. But this would equally apply to all three companies…
So in essence, all I am saying is that if FAB wants to integrate other weapons than what is currently offered with Rafale, they will have to be very careful with the context of the contract they sign.
This is because recent history has proved beyond doubt that Dassault can and will do anything in its power to prevent that, albeit only after any contract is signed. I mentioned three solid examples of that, from the experience of one country alone.
As for AASMs, they are good weapons, yet even the French seem to prefer cheaper Paveways for their Rafales/SEMs.
HAWX aceIt’s nice to see the F-22s/Americans *NOT* being again the good guys. Good for a change. 🙂 I like the Eagle’s glance backwards at 5:57 though. Brilliant! 😀
Still, I wish I could understand what they say.
HAWX aceThat’s because the only difference between SCALP & Storm Shadow is the aircraft interface. If you modify a Storm Shadow to make it connect to & communicate with Dassault aircraft, you turn it into a SCALP. Therefore, if it’s sold for use on Dassault aircraft it is a SCALP. It’s what makes it a SCALP, not a Storm Shadow. Got it?
For once more, your arguement is irrelevant: I agree with you, but you are answering to a different thing than what I said. Got it?
But there is no technical reason why a non-Dassault aircraft could not be equipped to carry & communicate with SCALP. Or, alternatively, already owned SCALPs could be turned into Storm Shadows with a minor modification. IIRC the differences are in the electronics, not physical connection, & it should therefore be possible to make it interchangeable, if a customer wished.
Sure. No question about it. The problem is that all that you described presupposes MBDA’s cooperation. And as it has been certified from past cases, that cooperation is not to be taken for granded. Period.
This is a serious accusation, & an entirely false one. I suggest you retract it.
It’s your own medicine. If you don’t like it, don’t use it. Period.
Swerve, I figure by the way he called a couple of you out – like he’s known you before his so recent join date – he’s one of the people recently wiped from the ranks. It wouldn’t take anyone long reviewing your track record to see that you’re a straight shooter around here.
It’s called witch hunting, and it’s funny. Do keep up.
Scalp and Storm Shadow may share a common origin but I have a strong feeling the Scalp is non-compatible to other platforms by design, to keep it propriety with no possibility of conversion to Storm Shadow. It probably works vice versa.
Yes, it does. It’s because it was designed with that incompatibility in mind.
Dassault has no say, except via lobbying of the French government. MBDA is limited in this respect by export permissions from the French government, not obedient to Dassault.
For a forth time, today alone: Yes, typically has no say. But practically… it has. Because both MBDA and Dassault have good interest in proprietarising weapons and aircraft. It ties up their customer with their products.
In the example I put forward, HAF can only use its SCALP missiles with its M2K5s. If they want to continue using them in the future they have only one option: Rafale. Guess who makes Rafale…
Of course this works vice versa too. Dassault would never certify american weapons (paweways an exception) on its fighters. So the only option is MICA/Exocet/SCALP missiles. Guess who makes them.
The protocols are different too. Neither a SCALP nor a Storm Shadow will fit to any other aircraft without modifications.
No offence here, but I will be slightly sarcastic: [sarcasm]So, any theory as to why MBDA would develop two identical yet incompatible missiles? Surely not because they had nothing better to do, right?[sarcasm]
EDIT:
There are many technical reasons for MBDA to develop two different incarnations of the same missile, whether you like it or not.
One of these reasons is that the Storm Shadow was developed by MBDA UK, whereas SCALP was developed by MBDA France. Both are nation-specific incarnations of a single design that derives from the Apache stand-off missile.
Another reason is that these missiles need to fit on aircrafts that don’t share the same avionics, nor the same wirings (connectors), nor the same protocols. Ground stations used to feed the TERPROM are also different for various reasons (mainly due to existing hardware and procedures).
You just repeated eveything I have said so far, more or less. Perhaps you should consult a dictionary for the meaning of the word “sarcasm”…
HAWX aceThis is probably one of the fastest and largest disaster responses in history, bear that in mind. There is only so much the world can do, and it is trying bloody hard right now.
Perhaps, with reference to the USA, this explains the speed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_government_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
Lessons learnt… :rolleyes:
Acknowledge that the sea operations couldn’t be done any substantially faster. But where are the aerial operations, other than flying stuff into the overwhelmed airport of Port au Prince? Where are the air drops that might reach outlying areas right now, not only after the infrastructure around Port au Prince is cleaned up??
This may be an answer, perhaps it will not satisfy you (did not for me), but an answer nonetheless.
Safe landing sites scarce for US helicopters
…but the Rear Admiral Ted Branch, the commander of this ship, has already found some pretty big problems. He sent some observers out to take photographs of the terrain and he’s very worried at how hilly everything is, how much debris there is and what kind of damage might be done to his helicopters if they’re trying to provide some of those remoter areas where people haven’t been able to get into yet…
HAWX aceThe US Navy site has quite a few pics from ongoing operations.
http://www.navy.mil/view_photos_top.asp
The Qatari Air Force has dispatched one of its brand new C-17s for a massive transfer of 50 tons of aid.
Qatar joins global relief effort in Haiti
QNA, Agencies/Doha/ Port-au-Prince
Qatar has become part of the international campaign to rush relief aid to Haiti, which is reeling from a devastating earthquake that struck the Caribbean island nation on Tuesday.
Qatar yesterday sent a strategic transport aircraft (C-17) to Haiti’s capital Port-au-Prince, loaded with 50tonnes of urgent relief materials to those affected in the quake-hit country.
HAWX aceUS NUCLEAR SUBMARINE IN GIB
The US Navy Los Angeles-class nuclear submarine USS Philadelphia arrived in Gibraltar yesterday on what could be its final voyage after 33 years in service.
Full story: http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=18108
HAWX aceSaturday, Jan. 16, 2010
FHI files ¥35 billion chopper suit
BloombergFuji Heavy Industries Ltd. filed a lawsuit against the government seeking to recover ¥35 billion in expenses related to the manufacture of the U.S.-designed Apache attack helicopter.
Fuji Heavy wants compensation from the Defense Ministry for license fees it paid to Boeing Co. for AH-64D helicopters, company spokesman Fusao Watanabe said Friday. The ministry, which agreed to buy 62 helicopters, only placed orders for 10, according to Watanabe.
An official at the Defense Ministry, who declined to be identified, said she couldn’t comment as she hadn’t been briefed on the matter
HAWX aceMBDA is mostly not French. BAe & Finmeccanica between them own 62.5% of it, & the other 37.5% is owned by EADS, which is rather less than 50% French. Those three shareholders sell aircraft in competition with Dassault.
But these shareholders do not sell SCALPs do they? They only promote Storm Shadows for those interested in aircraft that are competive to Dassault. Dassault customers are only offered SCALPs.
Completely irrelevant.
SCALP is not a competitive advantage for selling French aircraft to potential Gripen customers, since any Gripen customer able to buy SCALP would also be able to buy Taurus. If SCALP integration is withheld, they’d still buy Gripen.
But there aren’t many potential Gripen customers ALREADY possessing SCALP missiles, are there? Actually, other than Greece, there is none. So for Greece it is a major advantage to claim that your fighter is compatible with as much as possible of weapons in its arsenal. Dassault on the other hand has but one major advantage in promoting Rafales, that they offer powerful and unknown -to the adversary that is- weapons (MICA, Exocet, SCALP) that are NOT available with other candidate fighters. If they lose that single advantage, they may as well shut down their office in Athens.
So your point while 100% correct, is also 100% irrelevant.
SCALP/Storm Shadow is integrated on non-French aircraft. Only in the Storm Shadow version, but that is (1) a very minor difference & (2) customer choice.
SCALP is not integrated on any non-french aircraft. Though physically almost identical with SS, it’s a different, non interchangeable weapon. Try googling next time, it’s called research.
What you are arguing is that a mostly non-French company should systematically act against its own interests, & those of the majority of its shareholders, in the interests of a French company which is a rival to those shareholders.
Nope. I did not say what they should do. I said what they have done.
I have given you an instance of MBDA trying to sell SCALP/Storm Shadow to an operator of US aircraft (Spain, F-18). It has also tried to sell it to Australia (F-18)
Both of these examples, while correct, are also irrelevant. Neither Spain nor Australia were ever interested in buying Rafales. And besides, MBDA is not promoting SCALP to users of non-french aircraft.
How is this consistent with what you claim?
It’s quite simple, all you have to do is read my post.
MBDA (both in its former form, Matra and now) alongside Dassault have been incosistent with their promises and have systematecally sabotaged the use of foreign weapons on french aircraft and vice versa. It’s as simple as that.
It’s not my opinion, it’s the facts. My opinion is that they simply do what (they believe) is best for their interest as salesmen.
I suggest you try to look beyond the relationship between Greece & Dassault when thinking about your answers.
And I suggest you start reading other people’s posts before replying rather than making things up they never said, which is called trolling. :rolleyes:
All I said and proved is that Dassault, too, has a history of extrortion practices in terms of support of its fighters. Period.
HAWX aceWhy would that be? Surely, MBDA wants to be able to sell SCALP to current & possible future Gripen operators. If it refuses to co-operate in integration, then it’s giving away sales to Taurus or JASSM.
Because Greece is not interested in buying SCALPs or any other cruise missile. Already has SCALPs, but only 25 M2K5s ceritfied for it and a single airbase that can support them.
So, for quite obvious reasons, any industry interested in selling fighters to Greece would be eager to offer certification for SCALP. But in this case, Dassault would loose a major negotiating ace in promoting Rafales. SCALPs were ordered in 2000, but only a few months ago did Dassault release SEG52 software for integration with M2K5s for which SCALPs were bought in the first place.
They both have worked really hard to sabotage any effort for integration of foreign weapons on french fighters and vice versa.
HAWX aceThe US take over the situation in controlling the incoming flights…
U.S. Military Takes Control Of Airport In Quake-Struck Haiti
January 16, 2010
The U.S. military says it has taken control of the airport in the capital of earthquake-ravaged Haiti.
The U.S. military will help coordinate flights bringing in aid and evacuating foreigners and the injured.
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is due to arrive in Haiti on January 16 to inspect the damage and meet with President Rene Preval and other officials.
U.S. President Barack Obama has pledged continued U.S. commitment to Haiti.
Medical teams, meanwhile, have set up makeshift hospitals, as workers started to clear the streets of corpses and water was being distributed in pockets of the city.
Aid workers and authorities warned that unless they can quickly get aid to the people, Port-au-Prince will degenerate into lawlessness.
There were reports of isolated looting, but U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates said the overall security situation remains calm.
The Red Cross estimates up to 50,000 people were killed in the January 12 earthquake.
Source: http://www.rferl.org/content/US_Military_Takes_Control_Of_Airport_In_QuakeStruck_Haiti/1931050.html
Some sources claim the number of dead could rise to 200.000… 🙁
HAWX acefrance will not be given access to the necessary codes to implement the fitting of asraam, aim-9/120, i dont know about iris-t
the rafale buying nation will need to deal direct with uk/usa for it
You are so right. It applies equally to other countries too. Saab has offered Greece to integrate for free existing SCALP cruise missiles in order to make Gripen more attractive. Guess what, MBDA was not very thrilled.
AIM9 is not a problem. Rafale cam use the MagicII witch is 100% compatible with the AIM-9 (AIM-9 have been used in mirage in the past in export country).
Things are much more complicated than that and what you wrote is far from matching the naked truth.
If it was true, then all countries operating Mirage fighters and an american fighter at the same time, they would be already using AIM-9 variants, just because they are better and cheaper.
But this is not the case, is it? Greece used to have a large stockpile of AIM-9Ps and wanted to integrate them with its new Mirage F-1s. Guess what. Dassault simply denied in order to extort for more Magic sales and the american missile never cooperated with the planes’ Cyrano radar and for nearly 15 years (until solved) the plane could not carry more than two AIM-9Ps.
Funny isn’t it? Common rails was irrelevant.
For the AIM-120 I don’t know, but I think that the problem will be on the US side. (but if you buy rafale, you can have the far superior meteor)
@+, Arka
You are right. The problem is actually on both sides, the manufacturer of both the plane and the weapon.
Things are much more complicated than that and what you wrote is far from matching the naked truth. So please, stop talking BS.
Sorry to spoil your fantasies, but I can think of at least three verified examples of french extortion tactics in my country alone (Mirage F1s@ AIM-9P, Mirage 2K5s@exocet and SCALPs@Gripen) so the only BS around comes from your keyboard.
@jackjack
France can have access to US weapons as a NATO member.
Sure. So if tomorrow morning Dassault asks for access to say JASSMs in order to integrate it to Rafales for Libya, the US will be fascinated and eager to help ASAP in any way they can.
Use your brain for a change.
HAWX aceI hope he is OK. Flight suits are not particularly good at extremely cold temperatures. Hopefully, there are thermal blankets in the survival kit.
He was found dead yesterday, but no detailis as to the cause of death.
BTW, all russian Su-27 are grounded untill further notice.
Russia suspends flights of Su-27 fighters after crash
08:1516/01/2010
Russia has suspended SU-27 Flanker fighter jet flights until the cause of a deadly crash earlier in the week is determined, a Defense Ministry official told RIA Novosti on Saturday.
The fighter had been performing a scheduled flight on Thursday and was about 30 km away from the Dzemga airbase in Russia’s Far East when it disappeared from radar screens. The body of the pilot was discovered earlier on Saturday.
Full story: http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100116/157569514.html
HAWX ace(it still has tvc and tons of power)
But no HOBS missile (for a while anyway) or HMS integrated. Not that Rafale has them…
Dogfighting with guns takes away most of Raptors advantages . May be that explains the results.
You should use “certainly” rather than “maybe”. :diablo:
Actually, the point is not that the Raptor is in disadvantage. It’s just that the other guy has in fact a “fair” chance, which normally he would not.
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