If you can complete the targetting cycle – detect, localise, identify and track almost any high-yield ballistic system is a capable antiship platform. Put a 2Mt RV at optimal burst height within 5000yds of the core of a carrier group and the carrier is going home – more than likely with a lot of fire damage and shock/EMP damaged systems.

Agreed, if nuke warhead is used, no serious accuracy is needed.

Two things make that statement, and yours above, utterly irrelevant to the Chinese ASBM as touted. First is that, despite a few one-off Y-8 variants and some work on OTH/Skywave radar, the Chinese have not solved the targetting problem. That part IS visible – look at what the US is doing with BAMS for your cues – and would support the ASBM deployment, but, its just not there.

May I ask how can you (possibly) know this? Surely the Chinese have not issued a press release… If you ask me, I too think this is the hardest part, if they intent to go for a direct hit approach instead of nukes. But hej! These guys recently sent a man in space and brought him back, they are not as primitive as they allow as to think.

Best regards

…not that USA would ever chose to fight over Taiwan in the first place.

OK, allright, so the US would never fight over Taiwan. That’s fine.

So, any explanation or interpretion as to what exactly three US carrier battle groups were doing around Taiwan some two years ago during taiwanese elections? Surely they were not burning surplus fuel just for the hell of it, nor were they enjoying the sun, were they?

The United States sent three aircraft carrier strike groups to waters around Taiwan after China told U.S. officials last year there was high risk of a military incident after Taiwan’s March 22 presidential election, according to Pentagon and military officials.

[…]

Chinese Embassy Press Counselor Wang Baodong said last night that his government thinks the situation in the Taiwan Strait is “a bit more relaxed” since the defeat of the referendum, which Beijing saw as a step toward independence. “But we still think that the situation is very sensitive and complicated,” he said.

Mr. Wang declined to comment on the deployment of the three aircraft carrier strike groups, led by the USS Kitty Hawk, the USS Nimitz and the USS Abraham Lincoln…

Full story:

Subject: 3 Carrier Battles Groups Around Taiwan

Best regards

:rolleyes: What Kind of Logic is that.

It’s the kind of logic that prevails on the highest level of negotiations. 😉

Lockheed may also suffers from image because of selling stuff to Pakistan.

True, but then again, Lockheed has been selling weapons to opposing sides for decades, take the case of Greece vs Turkey for instance. All arms dealers do so. However they did manage to secure a small order for C-130Js from India. No big deal, but it’s a first step.

Best regards.

The Government of Australia has requested a possible sale of 24 F/A-18E/F Super Hornet

…

The estimated cost is $3.1 billion.

Hello guys, I don’t mean to interfere, but for the shake of the conversation, I would like to point out that there has been a second DSCA notification, this time for Super Hornets for Brazil.

This time it was seven billion $$$ for 36 airframes.

Here is the link: http://www.deagel.com/news/FMS-Brazil-Seeks-36-FA-18EF-Super-Hornets_n000006453.aspx

My point is that from DSCA notifications alone, we cannot easily exract useful conclusions.

Best regards.

Hello everyone,

Regarding the targeting issue, which was largely debated, I noticed at another thread a reference to a cold war-era ballistic missile of soviet origin, thw SS-NX-12, which was too adapted to the anti-ship role.

So, it seems that this chinese effort is not exactly unprecedented. I mean, if the Soviets did it then… it can be done, right? Especially some 40 years later…

According to wikipedia:

R-27K

The 4K18 was a Soviet intermediate-range ballistic anti-ship missile (also known as R-27K, where “K” stands for Korabelnaya which means “ship-based”). First tests in 1974.[3] It was operational during the 1970s as part of the Cold War.[4] Codenamed SS-N-13.

It’s citing a single source in russian.

http://www.missiles.ru/VPK-missiles-Tikhonov.htm

The russian wiki has much more info and a few pics, but I don’t grasp a word. This is what google’s translation thinks:

P-27K

The initial decision of CM from 24 April 1962 on the establishment of the complex D-5 is also provided for a homing missile with a warhead capable of hitting moving ships. Anti-variant missiles has received the designation F-27K (GRAU index 4K18). In the west, the rocket was code SS-NX-13. The missile was equipped with a second stage liquid rocket engine development of CB-2 (chief designer Isayev AM). To save the size rockets have been reduced by the size of the first stage, which eventually led to a decrease in the maximum firing range of up to 900 km. The head of the gooseneck, nuclear, power 0,65 Mt. [17]

Hovering on the cutoff was carried out using passive radar homing, with on-board digital signal processing computer system. [18] Initial data for the shooting were given satellite system “CSS” or the aviation system, “Success-U. Data processing equipment on the ship’s intelligence “Killer Whale” made it possible to determine the coordinates of the ships up to 25 km. These data are constantly out of date – during the prelaunch target location can be changed up to 150 km. [19] Therefore, for the second stage provides for the management by the double integration of the propulsion system secondary to extra-atmospheric flight phase. Initially, as an option for an additional trajectory correction for the atmospheric sector and equipping the missile warhead low power. But later on this option was abandoned in favor of a purely ballistic, with a warhead of increased power. [20]

Tests missile system began in December 1970. [7]

The cycle of ground tests at Kapustin Yar includes 20 launches (16 of them are found to be successful). [20] Under the media launch of the project 605 has been transformed into a submarine – the K-102 “Project 629, with 4 missile silos on board . The first launch from the submarine was launched in December 1972. And in November 1973, the test ended dvuhraketnym volley. All were carried out 11 launches, of which 10 are considered successful. During the recent launch target vessel was struck by a direct hit induced block. [20]

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0-27_(%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0)

Finaly, fas.org has a small reference:

The R-27K (SS-NX-13) modification featured a nose cone with a terminal guidance system. This missile, designated 4K18, was designed to attack both coastal radiocontrol installations and moving targets at sea. The R-27K missile was tested in 1974 on board the converted “K-102” 629 Golf submarine.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/slbm/r-27.htm

This is getting interesting… Any chance the Russian cooperated with the Chinese?

Best regards

Well, I think that Turkey has an F-16 assembly line…

Yes… in fact they even assempled a few vipers for Egypt, though in the end the Egyptians were not so happy with the level of workmanship…

In Norway (like most countries) there is a factory producing Coca Cola. The Norwegian factory is producing and selling Coke all over the country!

Great, isn’t it?

Well, yes, that’s just great, except for the fact that Rafale is not Coca Cola, not even close, commercially speaking.

Well my friend, noticing how “easy” it has been so far for Dassault to sell Rafales abroad one must ask: “if the Rafale is so expensive for a Brazilian sized military budget, would there ever be another South American country able to foot such a large fighter acquisition bill?

Always keeping in mind that the Venezuelans are solely buying from China and from Russia now, that Chile just bought TEN brand new F-16C/D(!) and Argentina is disposing of its obsolete military means at an alarming rate in order to desperately save cash… Colombia is a good US customer and recently got some revamped Kfirs from Israel and Ecuador is looking at China and Russia for new aircraft… As you see, Dassault could just as well offered Brazil the exclusive Rafale sales rights to the Moon and Mars and it would do us the same good as “The whole South American Market”…

No one outside the Ministry of Defense is taking seriously the “export potential” of the Brazilian built Rafales.

Also differently from what you are assuming there is just no guarantee that the Brazilian-built aircraft might cost less then the planes now built in France. The costs to set up a new production line with new local suppliers as well as the garanteed margin for Embraer here in Brazil will certainly jack up unit prices. Slo if the price is not going to go down the idea is to get the most ToT out of this deal so we can make it all pay out in the end. If it doesn`t pay out then this local production idea makes absolutely no sense.

Do you agree?

Regards

Hammer

I totally agree, but for the shake of the argument let’s suppose that say Argentina is a rich country with lots of money. Why on earth woud they possibly buy brazilian made rafales?! So that they become dependent on their arc-rival country in the region? The french constantly justify the title of the worst salesman ever.

Best regards.