IcarusBoy the only better resurrection jobs in history other than this thread date back to the bible.
Well done lads!
IcarusCypriot pilots have been trained by the EPA, but it is highly debatable as to whether they could effectively maintain a fleet of fast jets, and remember, its much cheaper an option to purchase Russian SAMs than it is to operate a jet fleet with one of NATO’s largest airforce breathing down their throats.
As for the Rafale, with the recent selection of the FREMM Frigate, I believe the Rafale has officially been removed from the competition for the NMA (next gen fighter purchase), which is unfortunate as the industrial offsets Dassault is offering, as well as in terms of capabilities of the aircraft in general make it the preferable option for Greece.
But promises were made to Germany some years back.
IcarusCypriot pilots have been trained by the EPA, but it is highly debatable as to whether they could effectively maintain a fleet of fast jets, and remember, its much cheaper an option to purchase Russian SAMs than it is to operate a jet fleet with one of NATO’s largest airforce breathing down their throats.
As for the Rafale, with the recent selection of the FREMM Frigate, I believe the Rafale has officially been removed from the competition for the NMA (next gen fighter purchase), which is unfortunate as the industrial offsets Dassault is offering, as well as in terms of capabilities of the aircraft in general make it the preferable option for Greece.
But promises were made to Germany some years back.
Icarus$22 billion over the next 10 years for major new equipment. It’s $2 billion a year which is not out of the realm of reality. Though expect cancellations and delays.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100006_26/06/2006_71338
Broken down (I apologize for the length!)….
AIR FORCE:
– Purchase of Fighting Aircrafts to counter-measure the turkish JSF (of course it talks for JSF); €4,75 billion
– Purchase of Fighting Aircrafts to replace the retiring ones of the 2nd generation; €3 billion
– Purchase of Fighting Aircrafts to replace the retiring ones of the 2nd generation (the already signed deal for the 30 + 10 F-16s); €2,5 billion
– Purchase of 40-50 Lead-In-Fighter-Trainer (LIFT) aircrafts; €0,9 billion
– Purchase of 3-4 Air-to-Air Refuelers; €750 million
– Upgrade of the rest of the Mirages to the -5 level; €550 million
– Counter-measure system for the new F-16s; €350 million
– Purchase of SAR helicopters and relative equipment (it’s about Super Pumas); €267 million
– Mid-Life-Upgrade of the T-6 trainer turboprop; €225 million
– Counter-Measure-Systems for the C-130s, the CSAR helos, the C-415MPs, and the VIP aircrafts; €75, €20, €10 and €15 million respectively
– Upgrade of the Counter-measure systems of the F-4s; €175 million
– Purchase of 3 more Mirage 2000-5; €135 million
– Upgrade of the counter-measure system of the Mirages; €92 million
– Upgrade of the jet engines of the Mirages; €89 million Euros
– Excercise of the option for the 3 extra C27J-Spartan’s; €90 million
– Upgrade of the counter-measure system for the RF-4s; €46 million
– 20 UAVs -and all the required equipment- for the HAF; €65 million
– 3 VIP helicopters; €36 million
– HARM (anti-radar) missiles and lightening pods; €572 million
– Constructions, facilities and machinery for the storage and the maintenance of the new systems; €315 million
– Upgrade of the F-16 Block 50s to the MLU standard; €56 million
– Upgrade of the Radar of the F-16 block 30s; €100 million
– Purchase of Electronic War UAVs; €450 million
– Purchase of UAVs with SEAD and ECM capabilities; €300 million Euros
– Participation to the nEUROn technology denmostrator program; €100 million
– Beyond-Visual-Range Air-to-Air missiles; €350 million
– Air-to-Ground missiles; €125 million
– Stand-Off Long Range missiles; €280 million
– LANTIRNs for the new F-16s; €125 million
– SHORAD Surface to Air systems for the protection of the Airports; €30 million
– IIR missiles; €120 milllion Euros
– Vehicles for the engineering staff of the HAF airports; €265 million
– Purchase of 2 batteries of Long Range SAMs; €334 million
– Purchase of Transport Aircrafts for the replacement of the C-130s; €450 millionJoint Armed Forces:
– Dedicated optical-wire network, stable, land mobile and naval terminals for the support of our communication satelites; €253,3 million
– Participation to the Helios spy satelite program; €160 million
– Upgrade of the armed forces C4I system; €6,9 million
– Upgrade of the SIGNIT capabilities; €8 million
– NBC materials and one more unit; €48 million
– Participation to a SAR minisat program; €300 millionNAVY
– Building of 6 new multi-purpose frigates, in two batches (3+3); €2,8 billion
– Excercise of the option for the 3 extra Super Vita missile boats; ??
– Building of 2 support ships; €500 million
– Purchase of floating cranes, light-house maintainance ships, fire-fighting vessels, etc; €270 million
– 5 aircrafts of naval cooperation & ASW; €250 million
– Mid-Life-Upgrade of the 4 MEKOs; €200 million
– Submarine Rescue ship/platform; €250 million
– new Hydrographic Ship; €180 million
– Landing Platform Dock (propably used); €150 million
– 3 S-70B naval cooperation helicopters; ??
– Building of another 6 Super Vitas; €300 million
– 51 Heavy Torpedoes; €110 million
– Transformation of 2 Kortenaers to training ships; €100 million
– Upgrade of all of the Phalanx AAW machine guns to the Block1B level; €88 million
– Upgrade of the Naval observatories (radars, cameras, sonars, etc); €160 million
– Upgrade of all the ship AND land launched Exocets to the MM40-Block3 level; €76,5 million
– Support of the NSSM, ESSM and Harpoon missiles; €72 million
– Peace keeping operations; €501 million
– Purchase of LFAS, HELRAS and TAS systems; €71 million
– Communications system of the Navy; €56 million
– Upgrade of the equipment of the Submarine Division; €50 million
– Purchase/Upgrade/Maintenance of several types of naval guns; €101 million
– Upgrade of the hull Sonars of the frigates; €48 million
– Purchase of personell transport ships and harbor patrol boats; €36 million
– Upgrade of the guarding/security systems of the harbors and the navy’s helicopter base; €36 million
– Purchase of electro-optical cameras for the ships; €32,5 million
– 2 SHORAD systems for the protection of the 2 main naval bases (Souda + Eleusis); €44 million
– Systems of Targeting Laser Early Warning systems for the frigates to be protected from Hellfires; €19,8 millionARMY
– Purchase of 490 tracked Armoured Infantry Fighting Vehicles (AIFV) in three batches of 291+75+124 vehicles each (the 445 Marders purchase is included here); 1,7+0,3+0,7= €2,7 billion
– Purchase of 34 NH-90 army helicopters in four batches of 8+12+12+2; 320+490+487+88= €1,3 billion
– Purchase of 160 shelf propelled howitzers of 155mm calibre in two batches of 48+120; 240+600= €840 million
– Upgrade of the 20 AH-64A+ to the -64D Longbow level; €602 million
– Upgrade of the countermeasure system of the -64A+; €5,6 million
– Purchase of an Apache simulator; €30 million
– Upgrade of the oldest batch of the Chinooks in service in the Hellenic Army; €72,5 million
– Purchase of 7 batteries of Medium range of SAMs to replace the Hawk SAM batteries; €607 million
– Upgrade of 172 Leopard2A4s to the -2A5 level; €603,8 million
– Purchase of 32 Leopard 2BUFFEL Engineering Fighting Vehicles (EFV); €302 million
– Purchase of 119 wheeled AIFVs in three batches of 84+14+21 vehicles; 430+48+99= €577 million
– Purchase of 322 heavy armoured recce vehicles for the artillery in 2 batches of 174+148 vehicles; 87+74= €161 million
– Purchase if 164 used Leopard 2A4 from the German Army’s stock; €142 million
– Purchase of 369 mortars of the 120mm calibre (they will all be self-propelled on M-119); €208 million
– Purchase of 209 VBL light recce vehicles; €111 million
– Purchase of 125 amphibious AIFVs in two batches of 50+75 vehicles; 100+113= €213 million
– Purchase of 26 special vehicles for the engineering units that support the Armoured and Mechanised battelions; €65 million
– Purchase of 144 more VBL light recce vehicles; €77 million
– Purchase of 162.735 new 5,56mm assault riffles of the Infantry in two batches of 112.370+50.365 pieces; 112,5+60= €172,5 million
– Purchase of 126 long range RPGs mounted on vehicles, with thermals and rockets for 10 days of indepedent fight, and 32 simulators; €136,8 million
– Purchase of 422 short range RPGs mounted on vehicles, with thermals and rockets for 10 days of indepedent fight, and 40 simulators; €155 million
– Purchase of 12 light wheeled self propelled Howitzers of 155mm; €34 million
– Purchase of 18 trailing Howitzers of 105mm; €18 million
– Upgrade of 86 RM70 MLRS; €51 million
– 16 Lenguan bridges mounted on modified Leopard-1s; €138 million
– 39 modern vehicles of mine dispersion; €136 million
– Purchase and equipment for 22 fast boats for littoral warfare (propably the CB-90); €40 million
– one new Chinook; €35 million
– Building of Hard-Shell underground igloos for storage of the munitions; €150 million
– Purchase of 4.592 TOW-II missiles; €160 million
– Purchase of 150 M-109_A3 self-propelled Howitzers of 1500 caliber; €15 million
– 9 anti-artillery radars; €180 million
– Upgrade of 18 MLRS; €90 million
– Upgrade of the Special Forces equipment; €50 million
– Purchase of 6.600 Minimi carbines; €114 million
– Battle Surveilance equipment; €31 million
– 81 mm mortars fully equiped with digital angle-meters, computers, Laser distance evaluators, thermals, etc; €22 million
– 11.000 third generation scopes for the assault riffles of the infantry; €32 million
– 2 certified/modern training centers for the armoured battalions and the infantry; €36 and €38 millions respectively
– 100 armoured medic vehicles, fully equiped; €28 million
– 448 sniper riffles of 0.50 inch calibre; €13.2 million
– Munitions of high accuracy and destuction ability; 2,5+1,2+0,3= €4 billion
– Program for the new trucks of the Army; €800 million
– Infantryman-of-the-Future equipment (personal C4I, communications, etc); €413 m
For comparison, since 1996, including this year (ie 10 years) Greece has ordered 90 F-16s and 15 M2Ks in that 10 year span.
But the above is what’s wanted. $22 billion is the lowest estimate/budget, while the higher end is near $30 billion. Probably it will see many of these wishes not happen but the compromise somewhere in the middle of 22-30 bln.
IcarusIt’s all a futile debate unfortunately.
The Greek government has basically told Germany that the EF is a lock, and that’s a shame. It seems Greece is going the way of pleasing 5 European countries and hoping for their support in issues within the EU (Cyprus being one….and this is not idle speculation, it’s been reported that choosing the EF is part of a deal in this way).
Last time around the offer from Dassault mirrored the EF offer, but at a 17% lower cost. The Rafale’s a2g capability compared to the EF is a no brainer, especially for a cheaper cost.
If the EF nations made the Rafale it would have been chosen. It’s sad really because the Rafale is everything Greece needs and more, as for the EF’s ‘growth potential’, it’s all academic. The Rafale has many more capabilities in the here and now.
IcarusDo the Greeks really have any money at all ? At RIAT the other day I was surprised at the very poor condition of one of the A-7 aircraft that they sent for static display compared to the other aircraft around them, did anyone else notice that ?
I wonder if perhaps they have other priorities ?
:rolleyes:
I wouldn’t put too much stock in the appearence of a 30 year old weathered A-7.
IcarusWas the accident where it occured, within the area considered to be disputed airspace?
Where they collided I have not heard. The Turkish pilot came down in international waters though.
IcarusBut the status of all the islands is already codified with various treaties.
The problem is one side does not respect them. As they do not the relevant ICAO regulations/treaties.
It might very well take a collision with a civilian airliner to open the world’s eyes to the belligerent nature of the Turkish state.
IcarusThe most beautiful aircraft ever to be in EPA service. They should make a museum just for them.
IcarusCould have sworn that Bell claimed this program would pay for itself in some years in reduced maintainance. Increased payload and ceiling. I don’t know. The NH-90 will never replace the Huey on a 1:1 basis and probably not in total troop carrying capacity for a long time at the least.
Bell sent a demonstrator to HAI some years ago and I was sure the MoD was going to opt for it.
IcarusThe intention of EADS to acquire HAI (EAB) if Greece decides to buy TYPHOON, declared Erwin Obermeier, high standing official of EADS Military Air Systems and general manager of Eurofighter-Typhoons production during ILA 2006.
😮
source: http://www.defencenet.gr
link for the article (in Greek only sorry…)
EADS know damn well the Greek state is looking to sell the majority stake in HAI. Carrot dangling and the government will bite.
IcarusSAR responsibility within Athens FIR is not the responsibility of Turkey.
Athens control has the responsibility to send aircraft to ID unknowns within Athens FIR, and the Turks did not file flight plans or inform Athens FIR.
IcarusOh he’s on a one way ticket to IP ban street.
IcarusWell that could be enough for a small overhaul/refurbishment of the Fulcrums I guess.
IcarusCheers I thought for a second that this was an old ressurected thread from back in the day.
Sign In
