RE: November 10, 1938

>>>Uhhh… Icarus, if i give personal comments about my personal observations it isn´t really necessary to counter those with links or suggestions. You´ll need a lot more to make me change my perception of the things i´ve seen and experienced. There is a life outside of URL´s, you know.<<<

All I’m saying is, go and find your friendly neighbourhood Kurdish immigrant and ask him. He may have a different and more in depth ‘opinion’ than yours Arthur. There is a reason Turkey has that reputation.

>>>The tourist areas in Greece are clean, it´s the rest of the country which i condidered a total dump.<<<

That’s odd. I always felt like cattle stewing in my own filth in the tourist areas. I swear, those Scandanavians aren’t as clean as they seem.

>>>I couldn´t believe the first two rotting sheep carcasses rotting beside the public road (this was near Tatoi-Dekelia, on my first day of planespotting and within the Athens city boundaries), but after a day or two i didn´t notice anymore until i came across the awfully smelling carcass of a cow right between the bus terminal and the village of Tanagra. And it seems that every village, town, city, settlement or hamlet in Greece just picks the nearest valley or gorge, use it as garbage disposal, and takes the next one without bothering to clean it up. In all honesty: rural, non-touristic Greece is filthy.<<<

From a man who has spent many months in the villages of Greece, I can’t say I’ve seen what you’re talking about. I’ve seen the odd dead animal, but they were road kill (yes, road kill-deer anyone?).

>>>True, last year there were less suspects clubbed to death in Greek police stations. And i know human rights are a very serious issue in Turkey, while Greece isn´t any worse than France (to name one). But that´s when it comes to criminals – i was talking about the impression i had from being a traveller with just normal, superficial contacts with the police.<<<

Well, I don’t think the cops are there to be ‘nice’ if that’s what your talking about. And no Arthur, I’m afraid Turkey is still a country where people are jailed for political reasons. Rape against Kurdish females especially is rampant. The EU has asked that these be fixed.

>>>I don´t care if motorbikes ride off a cliff, it´s usually just the rider of those things who gets injured. If he had driven more carefully or had left that extra bottle of retsina nothing would have happened. But i´m talking about the dozens of Ford Granada´s and Taunuses and Opel Asconas ignoring all regulair precautions on windy village roads, smashing other cars, people and cattle (the latter is of course left on the spot it died). And while Turkey has roads which are just as winding… etcetera.<<<

Sometimes, kids will be kids. The fact that by far the most accidents happen in the mountain roads IMHO shows something. Also, when a motorbike slams into an Alpha Romeo head on on a winding hill road, trust me, I’ve seen the aftermath.

Though Greek drivers have the well deserved reputation of being very aggresive.

>>>Very good. Hope it helps, but in spring 2000 it still took longer to drive a car from Marathon (yes, Kotroni ) to Athens than a certain runner did a few millenia ago.<<<

Funny. Seriosuly though, things are much better and getting even better.

http://www.halcrow.com/images/attiki1.jpg

Soon you will be able to go from Araxos and Andravidia to Nea Anhialos without going near Athens Arthur.

http://www.menck.com/Bilder/gefyramap.gif
http://www.gefyra.gr/English/WorksProgress/Images_pages_materials/Image…

RE: November 10, 1938

>>>umm.. Good job actually .. I am a gala fan .. do you even know what that says?<<<

I don’t. Could you translate it? Anyhow, I’ve spoken to a few Turkish people and they are really taken at how Gala fans, and Besiktas fans etc have been downright brutal in their hate to Fener about this derby. Some have even openly supported Panathinaikos. Such is the hate between clubs in Turkey (not all people obviously).

But all Greeks, even PAO’s worst enemies (Olympiakos) fans supported PAO (barring some here and there).

The Fener/Gala relationship seems alot like the PAO/Olym relationship.

P.S That banner is why Fener refused to allow it’s fans to go to Athens for yesterday’s game. It appears they really feared for their lives.

RE: November 10, 1938

Btw Jeun, sorry about Fenerbache…. 🙂

http://www.antifenerbahce.net/

http://antifb.defter.net/v2/images/terorfb.jpg

RE: November 10, 1938

>>>I travelled through both countries, they are both uniquely striking, but i would take Istanbul over Athens anyday, and dipshit i am not on the morphine or wacky tabbacky, I see more of the world in a month than you do in 10 years, so i think i can be a pretty sound judge, after all i fly people to the places they want to go.<<<

Thank you but I have travelled many countries. Istanbul may have a nice skyline, and very mordern skyscrapers, but such things are not the measurement of a whole country.

You know that Istanbul has slums right?

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=istanbul+slums

I won’t take away anything from a country’s beatuy, but you need to relax alittle. Athens is a city rapidly changing. Hellinikon is gone. Venizelos airport is here now. New Olympic parks. The signs in and around Syntagma and Omonia are coming down. They are also both getting makeovers. The metro has eased traffic with Line 2 being done in 2000 and Line 3 being made. With new standards and new cars, pullotion is falling. Mass tree plantings and new parks. The mini Acropolis park, cobble stone paths etc linking all the sites around the Acropolis is almost done.

>>>so try getting out of Greece and seeing for yourself how nice Turkiye is. Oh and by the way our family live in Glyfada and Voulogmeni in Greece, two of the more upmarket areas of Athens.<<<

Nai re malaka. Siga min eisai Ellinas esi. Etsi na milas yia tin Ellada. Den eheis sevazmo katholi.

RE: November 10, 1938

>>>While Turkey is indeed visibly poorer than Greece,<<<

It is.

>>>it is also much less littered (i´m not talking invisible pollution here, just the basic stuff people throw around),<<<

Well some of that may be due to the tourists (14 million plus last year). In Crete, you should see how many guys they have cleaning up the beaches after a hot summers day. And those aren’t Greeks there.

>>>has far friendlier policemen<<<

http://www.diaspora-net.org/Turkey/danish.html

http://www.hr-action.org/thr/Reuters031296.html

http://www.kurdistan.org/Prisons/npr.html

http://www.ozgurluk.org/hrights/torture.html

http://www.amnestyusa.org/turkey/women.html

We may not be perfect, but the Greek police are sure as hell not on the level on the above (and more). Though there are some issues with police liking to pull out their guns in Greece alittle too quickly, but today new resolutions making it harder for cops to take out and use their weapons has been tabled.

>>>and IMHO made a much more open, friendly impression than Greece. Especially outside the tourist areas.<<<

In your opinion.

>>>And you won´t believe it, but apart from Istanbul, Turkish drivers are far more capable of holding a steering wheel than your average Greek driver.<<<

Now this I really resent. True accidents in Greece are TOO TOO HIGH, but have you seen those windy village roads? It’s not the drivers as so much as it is the mountain roads. Not to mention that a large chunk of accidents occur from motor bikes.

>>>Traffic in Greece is definately hell, unless you want to surpass your own limits of antisocial behaviour of course.<<<

ANd that’s why we have the following projects:

http://www.minenv.gr/4/45/4504/e450401.html

http://www.egnatia.gr/text/en/index.html

http://www.aodos.gr/

http://www.metropla.net/eu/ath/athens.htm

http://www.tram.gr/

>>>Nothing personal, just some observations.<<<

Of course not Arthur. 😉 Happy spotting….

RE: November 10, 1938

What are you on? Have you been stealing morphine from your local hospital buddy?

You really wanna live in Turkey? Where people cannot finds jobs. Where the military rules. Where there is internal ethnic strife. Where personal freedoms are curtailed. I’m sure their vacation spots are nice, but experiencing tourist areas and living there are two different things.

I think you need to lay off the whacky tobaccy.

Pandos, Ellinas den eisai.

RE: November 10, 1938

Jeun, you are aware that Kemal was born in Thessaloniki and was no Turk right?

RE: Jokes about your own Nationality/Country!!

You Know You’re Greek When…

1) You’re 5’4″, can bench press 325 pounds, shave twice a day, but you still cry when your mother yells at you.

2) Your uncle owns a restaurant, has $300,000 in the bank, but still drives a ’76 Monte Carlo.

3) You share a bathroom with your 5 brothers, have no money, but drive a $45,000 Camaro.

4) Your mechanic, plumber, electrician, accountant and travel agent are all blood relatives.

5) You have a relative that has done something that required the IRS to threaten him.

6) Your 2 best friends are your cousin and brother-in-law’s brother-in-law.

7) You are a card-carrying V.I.P at more than 3 dance clubs.

8) Despite the hair on your back, you still try to impress the ladies by wearing your “Just Do Me” tank top to Wasaga.

9) At least 5 of your cousins live on your street.

10) All 5 of those cousins are named after your grandfather.

11) A high school diploma and 1 year of community college has earned you the title of “professor” among your aunts.

12) You are on a first name basis with at least 8 banquet hall owners.

13) If someone in your family grows beyond 5′ 9″, it is presumed his mother had an affair.

14) There are more than 28 people in your bridal party.

15) You netted more than $50,000 on your baptism.

16) At some point in your life, you waited tables.

17) 30 years after immigrating, your parents still say “Embros” when answering the phone.

18) You are an adult and are forced to be with your family at 12 midnight on New Year’s Eve.

19) Upon meeting another Greek, one of your first questions is, “what church do you go to”?

20) Your grandmother/mother/aunt has a miracle cure for every ailment under the sun.

21) You can name any or all of the gods on Mount Olympus.

22) Your mother or father still feel the need to tell you, “katse kala” in public.

23) You have been hit with a “pandofla” or a “koutala” or a “lourithi”.

24) You can dance the kalamatiano, tsamiko or zebekiko without music.

25) You or a family member have been photographed with a donkey.

26) You must name your children after your parents, grandparents, or in-laws.

27) You have at least 5 Maria’s, 9 Dimitri’s, 5 Niko’s, 6 George’s and 4 Yanni’s in the family.

28) You have ever heard the phrase, “Sto leo yia to kalo sou”.

29) Your parents have ever made up the name of a street or store or tv show because they couldn’t remember it or pronounce it.

30) Upon meeting another Greek you try to find out what village they’re from.

31) You have ever been threatened by a Greek School Teacher.

32) You still get threatened by a Greek School Teacher even though you’re 30 yrs old.

33) You have been spanked by your friend’s parents because your parents gave them permission to.

34) You have a bottle of OUZO in your house right now.

35) You know what a “komboloi” is.

36) You know how to work a “komboloi”.

37) When you were younger and going on car trips you always had to sit on someone’s lap in the front or back seat.

38) You were ever threatened to be eaten by the “mavro pontiki” when you were little.

39) Someone in your family owns or works in any type of restaurant.

40) You are surprised to learn that the local pet store does not sell goats.

41) You can’t understand why McDonald’s rejected your idea for the “McFeta” Burger.

42) Your entire house is a needlepoint warehouse!

43) You eat Vanilla with a spoon from the jar.

44) You have at least 2 kitchens in your house and a lamb roaster in your backyard.

45) Your parents keep the unclaimed $$$$$ in old moth ball smelling coat pockets.

46) At Weddings the karta (card) is determined on the amount of food, the type of band, if the couple is Greek and whether you are convinced the marriage will last.

47) You make up your own Greco-American language :For e.g. Carro (car), Moovare (move), Wassemassini (washing machine), bassi (bus).

48) You can always go to yiayia or papou to curse out your parents and all they do is soothe you and feed you karpouzi.

49) You have been given the evil eye by your mother in public and/or the biting of the forefinger knuckle.

50) You were the first one to get cable on your block, but the last to have it legally.

51) You dread kissing everyone at family gatherings, because you wind up smelling like armpits at the end of the night.

52) You’ve been embarrassed by Mom or Dad in stores because they expect the Greek discount and ask to waive the tax if they pay in cash.
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The Official Greek Handbook…
How to be a cool Greek

1. wear clothes of 2 colors, black and white.

2. own a cell phone and use it in at inapropriate times- in church, restaurant, funeral, wedding etc.

3. refer to anyone who’s not Greek disparingly as “xeni” and pity them for not being as cultures and sophisticated as the greeks.

4. have predominantly Greek friends, with a few token “xeni” thrown in for diversity. talk greek when “xeni” are aound

5. dress as though you are headed for a club when you’re actually going to work or class.

6. if you are a Greek woman, stare menacingly at the other women around you, especially if there richer or more attractive than you.

7. if you are a Greek guy, be sure not to bathe to achieve an “earthy” scent, then try to mask it with a lot of cologne; the combination drives babes wild.

8. smoke as if is your last day on earth…and smoke only malboros.

9. travel only in droves of 10 or more , and be as loud as possible at all times.

10. if you’re single, go to all Greek intercollegiate parties and all GOYA conferences, even if you’re 45 years old.

11. if you’re a single Greek over 30, rell everyone you’re in your 20’s, even if you’re pushing 50.

12. if you’re a single Greek gut, tell women you’re a “successful businessman” or that you “own a successful business back in greece” even if you’re an unemployed goat farmer.

13. dirty dance to Greek folk music.

14. wear only “designer” labels, even if you buy them off a cart on a sidewalk in Manhattan.

15. make sure “designer” lables are extremely visible, preferably embroided on the front of the apparel.

16. if you are a Greek guy, walk 10 feet in front of your woman and call her only when you want sex, then go into a deep depression and lament “theft” of your woman when she dumps you for another guy.

17. if you’re a Greek guy, be indifferent and rude to any woman you’re interested in dating, especially if she’s Greek.

18. if you’re a Greek guy, date “xenes” that treat you badly but marry a Greek woman that can treat you badly.

19. if you’re a Greek woman, date “xeni” you can treat badly but marry a Greek guy that treats you badly.

20. wear a leather jacket at all times… even in the summer.

21. tell American aquantances that money is never an object, even if you only have 10 bucks to your name.

22. guys: if you have hair, get it cut every week and use at least 3 different styling products; if you’re bald, develop a big ego to mask your insecurity. (applicable to short men)

23. make sure you install every possible option in your car, even if it is a Yugo.

24. own a sports car, even if its junk.

25. claim to be a devout Orthodox Christian but know nothing about the religion other than the date of your name day.

26. use church as social ground to meet potential dates.

27. if you are a Greek woman, dye your hair an obvious fake shade of blonde that is nonexistant in nature and swear that it’s natural.

28. if you are a Greek american, act like your father was royalty back in Greece but fell into hard times after the 1973 coup.

29. pump Greek music in the hood.

————————————————————————————————————————————

How To Raise A Greek Daughter…

1. Never let your daughters spend the night anywhere, except at a fellow Greek’s house.

2. Spend their whole life trying to find them a husband and disapproving of every one they find on their own.

3. Spoil them rotten, but make them feel guilty for it when they ask for something.

4. Fathers – tell them their just like their mothers when you’re mad. Mothers- tell them they have their father’s head when you’re mad.

5. Always compare them to other greek girls (preferably those they can’t stand) when trying to make them do something.

6. Complain that their clothes are too short, too tight, too low cut, too black, too cheap, or not right for church.

7. Brag to your friends about how beautiful and smart they are, but tell them to make their sons to stay away.

8. Press for them to marry a greek man, but then ward them off any Greek man you see them with. “He’s okay, but his mother is crazy.” “His father cleans up goat #####.” “I heard his has a big house but he locks his yiayia downstairs, do you want to marry someone like that?” “No policemen.”

9. Tell them they eat too much or not enough, depending on the situation.

10. Let them run around naked as children, but make them dress like nuns as adults.

11. Complain they spend too much money shopping, and then go out and blow $1000 on a poker game or gambling.

12. Tell them they never keep their car clean enough, even if your vehicle is covered in dust, reeks of smoke, and has empty coffee cups and food crumbs covering the inside.

13. Force them to be nice to people they can’t stand, while you talk about those same people like they are dogs.

14. Have a fit when they use the word ‘malaka’, but use it yourself as if it were going out of style.

15. Let their brothers get away with murder.

16. Embarass them by getting drunk at name days, Easter, festivals, etc, and then dancing the zembekeiko.

17. Assign a name to all their friends, and use them at inappropriate occasions (i.e. the mavra, the fat one, the ugly one, the dumb one, the slut, the chinese one)

18. Never let them leave the house after 10 O’clock.

19. Force them to go to church, join GOYA, dance in the festival.

20. Tell them “good greek girls don’t behave that way” as many times as possible within a lifetime.

21. Buy them gold jewelry even when you know they only wear silver.

22. Fathers – always leave your shirt unbuttoned at least 3 buttons, exposing chest hair and gold cross, when going anywhere with your daughters.

23. Expect them to know all of the Greek dances – except for the tsiftetelli.

24. Make them believe that Greek women never have sex.