…but in the USA The RAMBO Attitude seems to prevail over common sense

Wow, you’ve falsely stereotyped a whole country and profession. I for one are glad you won’t be flying on our airlines or coming to our country. Stay away.

Here’s some more information for you to chew on. Turns out that this pilot is ex-military, specifically Air Force. So he was trained to fight and fly by the military and he was trained to fight and fly by the TSA. You’re right kevinwm, these armed pilots are a bunch of non-professional idiots, or Rambo types as you put it.

http://www.charlotte.com/109/story/555828.html

Pilot identified in
US Airways gun case
Gun’s holster being investigated
JEFFERSON GEORGE
[email]jgeorge@charlotteobserver.com[/email]
James Langenhahn
Gun On Plane

The US Airways captain whose gun discharged in the cockpit of a Charlotte-bound flight Saturday is a former Air Force pilot who lives in Pittsburgh.

The pilot, James Langenhahn, declined to discuss the shooting Thursday night. “As much as I’d like to talk about it,” he told the Observer, “I can’t right now.”

His name was released, apparently inadvertently, after the Observer questioned the government’s concealment of facts on a police report of the incident.

The in-flight shooting was the first such incident since pilots began carrying guns after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Langenhahn, 55, is part of the Federal Flight Deck Officer program run by the Transportation Security Administration. He was stowing the 13-shot, .40-caliber pistol when it discharged — piercing the cockpit wall and fuselage — while the plane was preparing to land in Charlotte late Saturday morning, according to the report.

Other details released Thursday also indicate that the gun’s holster is being investigated in the shooting. Some pilots have criticized the locking holster system for the Heckler & Koch USP pistol as inappropriate for the program that arms pilots. Transportation Security Administration procedures require a pilot to transfer the gun and holster from his flight bag to his belt multiple times during a flight, pilots said in interviews.

The holster system is designed with a lock that goes behind the trigger, preventing the gun from firing. But some pilots say that when the gun isn’t snapped tightly into the holster, or becomes loose during transfers, the lock can end up in front of the trigger.

David Mackett, a pilot who is president of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance, said he supports the arming of pilots. But he said the combination of the current gun-and-holster system and the requirement that pilots frequently remove the gun when not in the cockpit is “just a recipe for disaster.”

“The locking holster was designed to be used to lock a gun away at the end of the day,” said Mackett, who is not in the Federal Flight Deck Officer program. “You need to put the firearm on an officer where he can control it and not touch it.”

The bullet — fired at about 11:20 a.m. Saturday — struck the left side of the cockpit wall and exited the fuselage below a window. The plane, an Airbus A319 en route from Denver, was at an altitude of 8,000 feet and about eight minutes from Charlotte/Douglas International Airport, according to the police report.

Along with the captain and first officer, the jet carried three flight attendants and 124 passengers — none of whom reported hearing the gunshot.

US Airways has grounded the pilot without pay, and spokesman Phil Gee said Thursday night that Langenhahn would remain grounded during the TSA investigation. Gee didn’t know how long Langenhahn has been with US Airways but said it likely has been several years.

Airport officials released the police report Tuesday after consulting with TSA legal counsel. Sections of the five-page report were blacked out, including names and other identifying information of the pilots, as well as whole sentences explaining what happened as the plane approached the airport.

The Observer asked the TSA to review the report to determine that it had not withheld information that should be public under federal regulations. A TSA attorney on Thursday night faxed the Observer’s attorney a new version of the report.

Most of the narrative was still blacked out. But the new version revealed a few additional facts, including that police took photos of the holster — and the last name of the captain in recounting his exchange with a gate agent.

“… Captain Langenhahn informed her that he was not allowing any passengers on his aircraft until security was on the scene,” the police report states.

In December, the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review newspaper reported that US Airways pilot Jim Langenhahn organized a barbershop-singing tribute to a World War II veteran. The event was partly in memory of his own father, a parachute rigger in the South Pacific. The article identified Langenhahn as a former Air Force pilot.

In 1999, Langenhahn wrote a letter to the editor of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette after a deadly American Airlines crash in Arkansas. He urged the FAA to overhaul its rules governing work and rest period for pilots, which he said would make flying safer.

So it looks like a locking holster malfunction may have led to the lock being run in front of the trigger instead of behind the trigger leading to the trigger being depressed and firing the gun. You’re right kevinwm, these Rambo types playing with their firearm are clearly trying to inflate their egos.

WD, You are asking me to answer a what if situation,Yes pilots should be allowed to defend themself ,and i have never said that they cant , I have pointed out that thes person was playing about with a loaded weapon, and discharged it , , you say he was stowing it away , why did he have it out in the first Place , had there been an atempt to gain access to the cockpit, by soime one , as far as i can see No , so whay did he have it out in the first Place,

So you’ve based your whole displeasure with the program on this accident? Obviously no one has stated that this accident is acceptable and I’m sure a few procedures weren’t followed but how does that invalidate the whole program? Has one aviation accident invalidated your belief in the capabilities of all law/rule/procedure abiding pilots? Has one medical error invalidated your belief in the abilities of every doctor? You hold folks to very bizarre standards.

why did he have it cocked , why was the safety catch off???

Not all handguns have a traditional safety as you may envision which is the case for the weapon FFDO’s are issued. Glocks, Springfield and H&K for example offer versions of their handguns that have different safety’s. Springfield has a grip lever that must be depressed and a double/slotted trigger that requires both to be pulled in order to fire. Such systems are used to allow LEO’s to have a gun that is “safe” when not being handled but immediately ready to fire once drawn. H&K provides the guns for FFDO’s and their version of the safety allows the gun to be carried “cocked and locked”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_USP

Variants 8 and 9 (double action/single action, safety lever, but no decocking)
Variants 8 (lever on left) and 9 (lever on right) allow the shooter to carry the pistol in a single-action mode (cocked and locked) with the manual safety engaged. This same pistol, without modification, can be carried in double-action mode (hammer down), with or without the manual safety engaged. The double action mode offers a second strike/double action capability in case of a misfire. The control lever has no decocking function on variants 8 and 9.

Basic weapons training teaches you the only time you Cocked the weapon and have the safety off is when you are about to fire the weapon , common sensence

See above, not all weapons have your movie inspired safety lock. I have this feeling you haven’t taken a gun safety class. These are the 3 cardinal rules for gun safety:

1. Always keep the gun in a safe direction
2. Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot
3. Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use

If my house is on fire i call the professionals to deal with , not a pilot
If im ill I call the professionals not a Pilot
If I want some one to fly a Plane , I call a Pilot, not Rambo

If you’re at 30,000′ and the airplane breaks are you going rely on the pilot or are you calling a mechanic?

If you’re at 30,000′ and the airplane catches on fire are you going rely on the pilot or are you calling the fire department?

If you’re at 30,000′ and you encounter weather are you going to rely on the pilot or are you calling the weather man?

If you’re at 30,000′ and someone attempts to breach the cockpit are you going to rely on the pilot or are you calling the Police?

No-one has yet answered what I thought was a perfectly reasonable question:

If you feel that this incident was acceptable, then how many times would firearms have to be accidentally discharged inside the cockpit of an airliner before it becomes UNacceptable?

I’m not interested in the politics or the “pro-” and “anti-” posturings, just a number and (preferably) a rationale.

I don’t think anyone would deem this situation acceptable. I can’t imagine what would have lead to this accident but like any aviation accident it might be wise to keep one’s speculation and contempt for the program until the facts are known. Some folks are more interested in exploiting any error as a reason against armed pilots than anything else.

This is the first incident involving an accidental misfire in the history of the program. Meanwhile there have been quite a number of misfires by Police Officers on duty in that same time frame so I guess we should disband the police.

You didn’t answer my reasonable question.

May I ask what a pilot should do if someone breeched the cockpit? Only fly the plane? If someone approached you as you sat at your computer at work and started beating you with a baseball bat I guess we could assume you would continue to only type away at the keyboard. What may I ask would happen if a pilot turned their attention away from flying the plane for 1 minute? 2 minutes? 10 minutes?

First was any one trying to get into the cockpit at the time this weapon was discharged , answer NO , so what was this guy doing with a this loaded gun that made it go off, certainly not doing his duty which is concentrating on flying the aircraft (derliction of Duty ) Unless his contract states that he can play about with loaded gun at at any time

The reports state he was stowing his weapon. My guess would be that the FO was flying the plane at the time.

Secondly how are these persons going to get acces to the cockpit , if i remember correctly all aircraft were suposed to have amoured doors fitted and that they were to be kept lock during flight, or dose that only apply to airliners outside the USA? and what happened to the Sky Marshalls?

Yes, aircraft are equipped with armored doors but they have one weakness and that is the needs of the pilots. You might consider it a dereliction of duty but surprisingly pilots need to eat and go to the bathroom which would lead one to believe that the cockpit door will have to be opened at some point in the flight. That is the doors weakness.

like i said The Pilots are professionals at their job , flying planes they are not trained to use weapons properly as this incident shows, the millitary and the Police are specially trained to use these weapons , so going by what you have said dose the 1 week course in flying aircraft make either a soldier or police officer a competent person to fly? , would you’re company employe either one ? I think the answer to both would be NO even thought they get 6 month refresher courses, I know who I would rather have at the controls of a aircraft that im in, but if a Pilot wants to play with guns in a cockpit , Join the Airforce

But all armed pilots ARE trained to carry and use their weapon. This incident does not indicate that this or any LEO are not properly trained. In the last 5 years there has been 1 accident involving an armed pilot. How many aircraft accidents have happened in that time? Do you also discount all pilots for being poorly trained as a result. I think you would be surprised the amount of training your average Police officer receives. Do you honestly believe they spent months on the range? It’s more like a few days on the range with weeks in the classroom.

All LEO’s can be permitted to carry a firearm on a commercial airliner after watching a video. How’s that for properly trained? The pilots are trained for the specific aircraft environment while the LEO’s in the back watched a video about gun safety. And you’re more worried about pilots?

For a living i drive a truck, and one thing that the authorities have been raming down our throats is that you can only do one thing safely whilst driving , thats driving , not speaking on a mobile phone, eating my breakfast , reading a paper, playing with a loaded gun, shaving , ect……….
WHY, because its is DANGEROUSE and pepole have been killed

Your comparison between driving a truck and flying an airplane are laughable and shows your complete misunderstanding of the duties and responsibilities of a pilot. You don’t think pilots are eating? Speaking on a radio? Reading? Looking out the window? etc. I put a few thousand hours behind the wheel of charter and transit buses and am quite aware of the differences of being behind the wheel and behind a yoke.

Thanks Jonathan Ornstein. Man, this industry will be so much better when he’s gone.

I had the opportunity to fly Aloha last year from Honolulu to Kapalua on Maui. It was obviously a quick flight but it was still a classy operation. I hope they pull out of this.

Yes, but G550 is notoriously narrow compared to Bombardiers.

Notoriously?

G550 height 6’2″ – 1.88m
width 7’4″ – 2.24m

Global Express height 6’3″ – 1.91m
width 6’11” – 2.11m

Looks like the G550 5″ wider.