Originally posted by wysiwyg
For a low cost operator he’ll need a 737 type rating which would set him back £20-25 big ones.

If at all possible he might want to check into getting a 737 type in the US if he can transfer it. They cost a fraction of that here in the States.

Here’s an example for $8,500:

http://www.fly-in-america.com/html/common/courses-typerating.htm

Continental Airlines even does it in there own sims. The price isn’t quoted here but I think it’s roughly the same as the above outfit.

http://www.continental.com/programs/training/b737.asp

Originally posted by weasel
Well put your aircraft into a spin and then see if any of the normal control inputs to change your pitch attitude or roll the wings or maybe yaw the aircraft have any effect. No, they won’t. You have to recover from the spin, using the standard recovery of course, and then the aircraft will respond in the normal manner.

As you said yourself using the normal spin recovery and you’ll return to “normal” flight. They are recoverable with a standard technique. As I said:

Out of control would imply that the pilot had no ability to control the spin or recovery.

You can control the recovery so I don’t consider you to be out of control, you still have options. In slow flight how effective are your ailerons in turning your aircraft? How effective is your elevator at increasing or decreasing your altitude? How effect is your throttle adjustments at changing your speed? The spin is just another realm that requires different control. Practice insures that the first time you see this isn’t without a skilled instructor.

Think of how the military describe it when one of their fast jets spins. The aircraft is described as having “departed” (from controlled flight).

Spinning a swept wing jet is different that spinning a GA or Aerobatic aircraft. There’s a good reason that you don’t see them demonstrate it at airshows.

Also you are never 100% sure that the aircraft will recover.

Did you try a hands off recovery? GA aircraft that I spun would self recover in about 2 turns thanks to the inherent stability of the aircraft. Remember we’re talking about GA aircraft that are certified for spin training. Yes, I’m 100% sure that an aircraft will recover assuming the pilot knows what he’s doing. That is why training is important because you have to know what you’re doing.

There have been fatal accidents due to spin training. Think of the Slingsby T3 accidents in the USAF. I know of at least one fatal accident in UK within the past 7 years and of 1 or 2 others previously.

There were 2 USAF training accidents only one being a result of a spin. So that gives your stats a total of 2 in the last 7 years and 4 in say the last 10. Wow, it sounds like they’re pretty dangerous. What about training in actual IFR conditions? That kills more people too than this DANGEROUS spin training.

I know a lot more deaths insue from single engine operations in multi-engine training, perhaps that should be taken out of the training syllabus too? In fact, it’s pretty safe to say that at least 1 multi-engine accident will occur every year here in the US. I think shutting one down in a light twin is just about the most dangerous thing you can do in primary training. Should it be eliminated? HECK NO. For crying out loud this training is what prepares you for the day when an engine throws a piston or what ever.

I believe that I am correct in stating that the CAA pulled mandatory spin training here due to the risks of doing the training out-weighing the benefits.

Than why require every instructor student to be trained in spins? Because there is a good chance that they’ll encounter one with students? If a student is liable to spin with an instructor than why not when they are solo?

My flight school got its start training cadets for the USAAF in the 1940’s. Here we are 60 years later and no deaths have resulted. A majority of those 60 years are with spins being a part of the training program. Dangerous you say?

Flying isn’t for the light hearted. It can be a dangerous hobby/profession. A lot of people seem to forget that and assume they can get by with the bare minimum which does nothing but put their own lives in danger and possibly those around them. Dumbing it down to a few manuveurs and limited hours does nothing to aid safety.

You even said it yourself, that pilots should practice recoveries BEFORE things get out of hand. That is what is wrong with training today, that statement right there. Some pilots think they can keep the aircraft from getting into one of those out of hand situations. “I don’t practice full stalls, I just make sure I don’t get into one.” It’s this god-like complex that gets pilots into trouble. Why are some pilots so afraid to train for those times when it does get out of control? Practicing preventative flying doesn’t always work as we all know the frequency of the inadvertant stall/spin during landings.

Famous words of the departed pilot, “It won’t happen to me.”

Originally posted by US Agent
Belgium…home of the brave…(at least when compared to France.)

Or as the Germans refer to it, Belgium: The Gateway to France. 😉

:confused:

For someone who’s thousands of miles away you seem of certain of the power of the KKK. The US isn’t like Hollywood. We don’t all drive big cars, carrying guns, hate foreigners, live in hugh houses or have routine riots. The KKK doesn’t have branch offices in every town. It exists more in movies and TV exposes.

Just because someone doesn’t like a country doesn’t put them in a group of violent racists. Frequent reference to a nearly non-existant group in an attempt to pigeon-hole an entire country is childish. You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about and are attempting to incite anger or embarrassment by your KKK references. Being unfamiliar with exactly the status is of such organizations in a foreign country makes your comments downright ignorant.

Now I’m sure your fine country doesn’t have it’s share of screwballs does it?
:rolleyes:

What’s the big deal? It’s just the flight attendant giving the floatation device demonstration. 😉 😀

The only way to fill a 747 or 767 international flight is to have a hub and spoke system. But in the US we’re seeing a hugh shake up of the domestic structure thanks to the introduction and improvement of the ERJ and CRJ. With both capable of 3-4 hour flights companies are realizing new possibilities in flight frequency and destinations. They can seriously compete on 4 hour (previously 737 flights) routes. Now you don’t send 3 737’s from NYC to Chicago, you send 9 ERJ’s. The traveling public has 3 times the choices in departure times which is great and the airline needs less people per airplane to start making money.

Up until this point we’ve only seen a shift in the hub system as airlines replace larger equipment with smaller. As the airspace gets more conjested with the increase flight frequencies in smaller jets I think we’ll see a shift to more point to point flying. Southwest is really the only airline that I know of that survives on almost total point to point service. No one has dared follow yet but if anyone does I think it will be with the ERJ/CRJ due to their lower costs. Jetblue put in that big order for the 190’s, perhaps they’ll be the first.

Well we couldn’t really help them since they were dieing from diseases that the Europeans were immune to for centuries. It’s tough to help someone when you don’t have any experiece dealing with yourself.

I learned last week though that the Native Americans gave sifilis the Europeans. It wasn’t found in Europe and the Native Americans had an immunity to it’s more lethal effects. They harbored it unknownly until their European partners starting showing some ill effects. Oops. 🙂

It’s also important to note that the land expansion in the US wasn’t all done by wiping out the Indians. Quite a lot was done through mutual agreements or just traded away for goods not to mention those that blended into the Settler’s culture because they wanted to. A majority of what you’re focusing on was only a small fraction of the story. A couple rouge tribes took to what would be considered terrorism today to strike at the settlers. These tribes though also had a history of pushing around their neighboring tribes even before the Europeans came in. The indians fight them back and it’s self defense, the settlers fight back and it’s considered Genoside.

Also why is everyone coming down on the US about this? What about the French and the Canadian tribes? I don’t remember seeing any of those still existing there after their colonization? What about the Spanish and the Central American tribes? Again, those were long gone before American was even on the map.

The US has a thriving Native American culture now both on and off reservations (espeically now with the boom of casinos). I don’t remember seeing any in any other country in North America.