Well, I found Harrier’s SAC sheet (Standard Aircraft Characteristics) and it had thrust figures for Pegasus 11:

So as can be seen, max thrust for takeoff using water injection was 20,930lb, maximum in level flight (15min restriction) was 16,350, about 22% reduction.
Well I dunno. Take F-22, demonstrator first flew in 1990, entry to service in 2005. Using same timetable for “F-29” would give is IOC date ~1999.
Also given that USAF was not going to order this aircraft in any case, how much market there would be for it? F-20 secured like four planes ordered after years of sales effort? Would FWS really much difference? Also it would run into same competition Gripen, Mirage 2000 etc export efforts did in the 90s/early 2000’s: cheap surplus F-16’s and MiG-29’s flooding the market.
Well, of course you could design an operational fighter based around the principles demonstrated by X-29, but it would be a substantial effort, similar to designing Eurofighter after EAP had flown. We are talking about service entry date of late ’90s, if things go well. By then Gripen is already on the market…
No. Technology demonstrator is a far cry from an operational aircraft. You have to worry about things like getting useful endurance, carrying sensors and avionics, useful service life, carrying weapons – did X-29 even have any hardpoints? You’d essentially have to redesign the whole aircraft.
When Kestrel became Harrier, they had to redesign 90% of the aircraft, sometimes multiple times.
if those points and costs were true
then the Ligtening would have been the best. 2nd best results and cheapest operating costs…but somehow I cant believe it. This is the BAC lightening!?
isn’t it significantly heavier and more complicated than the Mirage or Draken?
If you read closely, you see that Lightning had very high operating costs. I suppose the airframes themselves would have been really cheap, then (they were from Saudi-Arabia).
Saab made another offer which put the cost structure just under Lightning.
I guess there were no used F-5’s available.Or if there were, they were F-5A’s which wasn’t very hot ship by 1980’s.
Cool, that was super-interesting. I had read about the ’80s evaluation but did not know any deeper details before that. That preference for Mirage 50 was strange, though that variant did have real radar, no?
The evaluation commission recommended the purchase of 24 J-35D but, for reasons that are unclear to this day, the government eventually ordered a second batch of 20 Saab 105XT jet trainer. They would serve as the main “air surveillance aircraft” into the 1980s and still carry out a large part of QRA duties today (!!!).
What?! Don’t you have Typhoons for QRA? Saab 105 can’t catch anything. 105 was one of the planes competing for Finnish Air Force advanced trainer requirement in the ’70s and FAF CinC threatened to resign if slow slug like Saab was selected.
Draken could do head-on attacks with its radar and missiles, MiG-21 couldn’t. Also I think Draken radar had considerably wider scan area. MiG-21F of course had no real radar at all.
I have been sitting in the cockpit of both planes, and can tell you that most of the time, a mig21f would not stand a chance meeting and Draken if he does not have help from groundcontroll radar.
Mig21 have very poor visibilty out compared to Draken, and you have to manually adjust sights and radar etc with a 1000 buttons and switches. If you really manage the workload in Mig 21’s and could have an alternative carier as an very god piano player, then you would crush the Draken with an mig21f in close air fight, according to the finish Draken mecanic I spoked with at the finish airforcemuseum. Very few mig21 pilots in finland became that godd with the plane.
According to experienced MiG-21 -pilot, 21F had quite good view out of the cockpit, but 21bis was considerably worse. Cockpit was somewhat confusing and pilots would sometimes make simple errors like deploying the brake chute when trying to fire the cannon etc.
Big advantage of MiG was carefree handling, it would not spin or stall violently unless you tried. Spin recovery was not even practiced. By contrast in Draken, pilot had to constantly monitor AoA to avoid superstall.
what were Finlands experiences about MiG-21 and Draken sinc they had both?
from you rstatement i assume Swedish products were cheaper than French
Draken was always seen as more capable than MiG-21. It had better radar, more extensive avionics and armament setup and better endurance. MiG was faster and more agile though, and had better high-altitude performance. Particularly MiG-21F is always remembered being great to fly.
Finland got pricing information from Danish 1968 evaluation. At that time, Draken costed 6.1 million FIM, F-5 6.2 million and Mirage III 7.1 million.
Draken had a datalink, which was quite unique at the time.
Datalink was not exported. Though Finland eventually developed their own.
or a Mirage IIII as a Fin
wow thats sexy
Yeah, real nice – though that’s Mirage 2000.
But why does it have a Draken hull number? Mirage would be MR-202 or something.
FAF wanted Mirage in early ’60s, but it was much too expensive. So MiG-21 was acquired instead. FAF considered Mirages many times, but always they were found bit too pricey.
sv.wikipedia.org:
Under de 38 år som flygplanet var i tjänst i Svenska flygvapnet var den totala flygtiden 766 720 timmar med 119 flygplan som totalhavererade detta ger en haverifrekvens på 15,5 flygplan på 100 000 flygtimmar. Motsvarande haverifrekvens i Danmark var 6,2 och i Finland 1,4.
So accident rate in Swedish service was similar to Century Series fighters in USAF service, about same as F-100, ie. pretty awful. After superstall tendency became better know and training program began with specially modified 2-seater, numbers got better by LOT, which is reflected by its excellent safety record in Finnish service (2 airframe writeoffs out of 48).
Too many crashes for a start. Draken had a much better safety record and a longer range which would have better suited the australian mission.
Both were still better choices than F-104.
Draken had terrible safety record in the first decade of its operation. Only when they began superstall training in the seventies it became acceptable.
In all likeliness the Globaleyes were in the RFQ response which was delivered in February. It’s not like they can suddenly come and say “Oh and you get this lovely baseball cap on top of all that”. But clearly publishing the matter now, just day after the Swiss debacle, is no coincidence.
FAF was studying possibility for AEW aircraft acquisition in the ’90s, but back then it was clearly complely unrealistic, with it already being not-a-minor miracle that they got the Hornets.
I could not find an English language news piece about this, but today in somewhat surprising twist, Saab announced that its response for Finnish bid includes two Globaleye AEW&C aircraft, in addition to 64 Gripens.
Why? In what scenario would the Swiss air force undertake strike missions?
Dunno, but apparently they have figured that out, as Strike is one of the requirements for new Swiss fighter, which it wasn’t for F/A-18.