it would be interesting to see an estimate how much mig lost on exports by not building an actual mig-21 replacement
It was hard to get light fighters sold in post-Cold war world. There was large number of surplus MiG-29’s and F-16’s available at reasonable prices. Even upgrades to older MiGs sold poorly despite their cost-effectiveness: why bother upgrading an old MiG-21 when you can get much better fighter cheaply?
Being a singel seater also helped matters.
Well yes, though original Su-35 had canards too.
Couple of nice photos of the “Super Fulcrum”
What are those pods under the engines, near the main landing gear?
The Irbis, Array was a new development using much lighter material, and the new backend is highly modulated with open architeture layout, helped reduce weight even further by a fully digital suite.
OTOH, Irbis antenna is bit smaller so maybe part of the weight loss is indeed performance tradeoff, deemed acceptable if they managed to get the radar weight under the threshold which allowed them to get rid of the canard setup? Seems plausible.
But as underlined by R. Aboulafia (something that we had discussed even earlier):
“And it’s no secret the M-346, with a fly away cost of about $25 million, is an expensive plane — about the same price as the T-50,” he said. “For the M-346, which lags on some specifications including Gs, price was doubly important and they needed to hit the $15-18 million zone.”
That is surprising as looking at past orders, it seemed that T-50 was signifantly more expensive than M-346. Latter is also much smaller and has no afterburner. Though, most T-50 customers seem to prefer combat-capable variant which obviously hikes the price up.
F/A-18 is a Navy plane so they preferred twin engines when possible, but IIRC the main reason why it had two engines is because it was a development of the YF-17 which started with two smaller turbojet engines rather than one large as the F-16. Not sure if Rafale had a suitable single engine as an option, but it was also planned as a carrier aircraft as well, so perhaps that played a role as well. In any case, it’s hard to directly compare designs going for different requirements.
I’m not saying that MiG’s choice was bad at a time since export considerations didn’t play a part at that time, and, yes, the requirements for being able to operate from unprepared airstrips additionally reduced the available space for fuel. But, in post-Cold War hindsight, the basic design has two engines for which it has too little fuel and only three hardpoints per wing which rather limits its useful weapon load except for its primary short range interception role. Compared to its US rival, the F-16, which carries the same or larger payload and has a somewhat longer range IIRC with a more compact airframe allowing for a single engine to suffice. I love the MiG-29’s looks, but it’s hard not to admire what the F-16 designers did. The MiG-29M would have been what the MiG-29A should have been in the first place (improved range and enlarged wing among many other things) if it wasn’t so tailor-suited to those rather narrow-minded requirements.
Well, single-engined option was available (Project 33) but VVS didn’t want it. Dunno why they didn’t do the obvious, medium fighter with one AL-31F. Maybe there weren’t enough of those engines available.
Problem for the Soviets was bulk & weight of their electronics. If they wanted even remotely comparable avionics performance, their fighters had to be made larger than their Western equivalents.
MiG-29M based variants offer adequate range and remove the need for “hump-back” solutions like SMT. If more range is needed, they should be able to easily design suitable CFT’s.
On a plus side, MiG-29 airframe probably doesn’t suffer from weight gain to same extent that F-16 does. Latest Block 50/52+ is two tons heavier than early F-16A (2.5 tons for Block 60). Relative weight gain for advanced MiG-29 versions is much more modest.
What I’m still rather curious about is why Egypt went with the MiG-29M? Since they already have F-16’s, some Flanker variant would have offered them better power projecting capabilities (they are purchasing those Mistrals after all). Did they get a very good deal on it or what?
al-Sisi went to crazy shopping spree when he assumed power. He bought Rafales and a FREMM off the production lines – that must have costed ungodly amount of money. And then the Mistrals, helicopters and whatnot…it’s understandable that EAF doesn’t want to depend on single supplier, but rationale probably played little part in many of their recent procurements.
Yeah, that seems to have been the main disadvantage of the basic MiG-29 design – the need to use two engines on a relatively small airframe which raises the purchase price and especially the operating cost. Not sure how the newer variants are in that regard (with the improved engines), I’d expect the operating price to be noticeably lower than the Su-30SM still, but the low production numbers probably hurt the purchase price somewhat reducing the difference towards to the Flankers?
F/A-18 and Rafale are two-engined aircraft in same size class (slightly smaller, in fact)…
I think original MiG-29 was disadvantaged by original requirements which resulted to poor endurance and to make it competive, they had to update the airframe so they could use integral tanks etc. By contrast Sukhoi could keep cranking out old-fashioned riveted airframe Su-27/30’s, giving it economy of the scale.
OTOH, I am pretty sure MiG-35 is more economical to use. Smaller, consumes less fuel etc. So in long term it may well be cheaper.
Yeah, it has been awful of late. It is always stuck on loading some last piece of content which takes ages. It is especially bad on Firefox, because in current version of Firefox, if one tab doesn’t load it craps all the other tabs as well.
– MiG-31M, type 05, a strong modernization of MiG-31
– MFI / multi-purpose fighter / 1.42
– MDP / multifunctional long-range interceptor / 70.1
– Hypersonic reconnaissance and interceptor (possible) / 301 and 321
it’s all MiGs
Ah, it was 701. In Bourget 1991 Soviets presented MiG-31 and Mikoyan representive said that in next Paris show, they would roll out its successor. This was all very mysterious, and undoubtely he was talking about 7.01 (I’m not sure where the point should be). But apparently it was cancelled 1993.
Looks very racy. Some models in the ‘net have different engine arrangement.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]250727[/ATTACH]
Link (in Russian) MTOW 65 tons… 😮
Talking about post-Soviet aircraft projects, ISTR that there was also Mikoyan project 801 (or was it 805) which was supposed to produce MiG-31 successor. It was described as “faster and stealthier than 1.42”. Was anything ever published about it?
RotW????
SpudmanWP, you are confirming all the bad they are saying against american educational system regarding geography.Spain got Typhoons, same as Italy, Germany, UK. So stay sure that their F/A-18 was not used a prevalent A2A role at all.
The standard around there , ban some countries too small or too poor to have more than an handful of jets is having almost two lines, one more specialized in A2A, the other in A2G.
Sometimes they are made by different fighters, in some other cases by a fighter and a specialized attack plane.Even the cash stripped Greeks got both F-16 than Mirage 2000, still they struggle hard to keep in service their last F-4 because no one of their newer jets can still match them in some missions…
Are they all coming from Mars?
Spain has Typhoons now, but before that F/A-18’s took care of air defense. Greek bought Mirages to make sure they have a first-line fighter in the case US refuses to sell latest F-16-variant or missiles to it.
Really? Do tell, when the CdG was deployed to Afganistan (1st time, actually first several deployments) which aircraft launched most of the strike missions?
Ummm…weren’t there like TWO Rafales on CdG during that deployment, and they were only equipped for A2A?
Rafale carries 3 times load to 3 times distance over Super Extendard. Moreover Rafale has long airframe and engine life advantage.
I know “Extendard” is a typo but couldn’t resist 🙂 …Aeronavale actually developed a loadout for SEM which offered nearly same endurance as Rafale. It consisted of three drop tanks and two 125kg LGB’s. Of course, Rafale could carry 250kg bombs instead, and two self defense missiles, so it was still better. But they really squeezed everything out of that old gal, they were roled plenty for A2A in fact, especially when Crusaders became increasingly derelict and later, when Rafales were very few.
And yeah, I’d have loved to see them go another 40 years 😀
blah. MMRCA chose Rafale when what they really wanted was a single engine jet
Indian Navy chose MiG-29K when what they really wanted was a western twin engine jetIts still not too late, any chance India can convert the IAF orders for Rafale into IAN Rafale Ms?
at least that’ll save time for one of its two competitions.
Really, it would be cheaper for Indian AF to simply acquire those 126 ‘expensive’ Rafales, instead of buying 36 ‘expensive’ Rafales and 90 ‘cheap’ single-engined fighters.
At this point, most economical option probably would be to invest on wormhole technology, build a time machine, teleport back to 2007 and buy Mirage 2000 line from Dassault.
And you can’t modify an Su-27UB into an Su-30 as they are structurally different, don’t make things up.
Well, very first Su-30’s were basically somewhat modified Su-27UB’s…of course especially MKI-standard planes are quite different.
Perhaps the most realistic scenario is that after several delays they will decide (sometime around 2025) to cancel, and instead buy more Su-30, Rafale and Tejas…
IMHO Canada has already lost the competition of the worst procurement processes on this planet.
Worse than Canadian Sea King replacement process? That one is really hard to beat…