Very good news on the additional funding, much needed. I’m one of those lucky people I guess who is part of the design team who is responsible of the relocation and refurbishment of the Bellman hanger and flight shed. They will look very good with many interactive features for the many hopeful visitors. Its certainly going to be challenging project. I will see if ‘construction’ photos along with any interesting ‘design’ drawings can be published from the DT in the public domain. So happens I have had a meeting today on various M&E aspects of the project.

If true, I always thought this was short lived expedition that would make money up to the point tha CAA enabled actual flights in a spit., Aero Legends out to Headcorn seem to be able to offer this and much more. Did this company not find it tough last year with mech problems of the helicopter?

Quick company check of A4A Ltd (action stations are a subsidiary) and they didn’t have much in the bakn at last account submission £579 with net worth -180k.

We don’t know what sort of manoeuvre was planned, and we don’t know what went wrong during the execution of it. We must leave that to the AAIB, who will look at all the information, and come to a firm conclusion. Until then, please, lets leave it there.

Bruce (Moderator)

Ok fair enough understand. I have it on good authority that was the manoeuvre planned and it looks like from footage and doing some calc he didn’t quite make the vertical alt req. But ill stop there.

To answer Tempest414 and Tempestnut I also have seen this Hunter display on a number of occasions and do not recall seeing this type of manoeuvre before. I was stood on the beach near the point where the display axis bisects the beach. I heard the Hunter coming from behind where I turned round to see he had clearly transited round the coast from the east. He turned and ran in nearly overhead and ran down the display line. Didn’t get a shot initially as the sun was in the way but I watched him all the way down. He made a slight correction to port then reversed it slightly which would have put him in conflict with the high ground to the north. I assumed at first when he went and rolled slightly to port he intended to run right through and up through the gap between Lancing College and the opposite hill into a wide climbing turn and return back down the display line.
I was surprised when he corrected to sbd slightly and then pulled it up into a loop. Instead of completing the loop, rolling off the top and diving back down towards the sea he rolled about 90 degrees to starbord and pulled it over towards the east as if trying to do a quarter clover or cuban. He seemed to hesitate slightly at the apex and fall out of the manouvre. Then it appeared from my position to dive almost vertically back down whilst attempting to roll back towards the airfield when I lost sight just before the point of impact. At the time I thought it a strange manoeuvre, from the angle of the recovery it seemed unlikely to succeed. When he ran in overhead I noted that he had flap set, which I thought strange and he was not going particularly quick, no change in engine note, as if still in the transit, which is why I initially thought he was just going to run through.
Having read PPrune and the threads on a number of sites it seems that 20 degrees of flap aids manouvering in ACM at low speeds but above 240 knots may induce unwanted aerodynamic effects and possibly the so called ‘phantom dive’. The last clip I saw clearly show a marked dive just before impact and I would not be at all surprised if this was not the case here. As with all situations of this nature there are going to be a number of contributing factors including perhaps the ambient air temperature on the day? None of which answers why the manoeuvre was attempted and yes it clearly looked wrong.

I was ridiculed early on, posting straight after the event of which I saw first hand, and stating what I think happened whether appropriate or not at the time.

I’ve seen this aircraft display a few times and even after going back over last years Shoreham display by Andy it was not the same as this, first approach the same but slower, derry turn the same, but actually in this instance he failed to complete the quarter clover, not the same. I maintain he was too low and too slow sub 200knts (flaps extended too much more than the 20deg) to start a loop as can clearly be seen from multiple angles.

I do wonder why he did not continue his roll to port which he started as he climbed and then decided not to continue at the top until just past the top but then his angles were all wrong for the completion of the clover and the re-joining to the north of the runway axis . He seems to flatten out at the top and then nose down which was held for too long and didn’t give him the angle for safe exit. The hunter looses a lot speed in a climb and falls like a brick below 130knts as I understand it (even more so if your carrying a lot of fuel) you keep her rolling, its as if he changed his mind at the top or got disorientated? He probably thought he got away with it and would make it and he would have but for an additional 200 ft but unfortunately the AC stalled as is clear from the angle od decent and impact to ground. I still also wonder whether the altimeter was set correctly after arriving from the sea otherwise why would an experienced pilot be so low to start that sort of manoeuvre which I don’t think he wanted to execute?

If he completed the 1/4 clover properly, the exit angle wouldn’t have been so straight but flatter and probably been back on line for a pass along the display axis. At the top he would have been able to see where he was, so why did he push the situation? It looked wrong from the moment he started the manoeuvre, and if it looks wrong it probably is. He would have got a stern talking too or even a warning from Rod Dean or CAA rep for being too low but at least no accident.

I think the poster I commented on and myself understood that, what is of interest is when does an aerocraft become Vintage and does it differ between in military service and civilian ownership.

Hunters are still in use both here and in the States in connection with development work but are privately owned. Do we know why the one in the States crashes a while ago?

Hardtarget,

The CAA have no jurisdiction over military aircraft. I’m not sure where you have heard that the Typhoon display will be limited. To change the display will involve a full revalidation via the military PDA (Public Display Authourity) process. The same would apply to any modification to the existing Red Arrows display.

I know that they don’t and aware of the implications but what is the difference between a civilian jet and a military jet doing the potential same manoeuvres or greater?We could quite easily be talking about a military Fj causing this devastation.

my point about the tiffy was logical as surely performing manoeuvres overland and the dangers it has to the public is the same for civil and military? This is the same at any airshow.

to me the statement from the CAA is premature but can see that had to do something to prevent another possible event whilst they investigate this. At least we will still get to see them in flight for the remainder of the season and the vulcan can attend her last remaining shows albeit very sedately.

i don’t agree with the CAA statement but hey ho.

Hunters have always been displayed with 1 notch of flap selected. It’s so a higher power setting can be maintained.

It looks to me more than one notch is applied in the photos. Shame there were no hunter boys there signing books I would have had a nice chat and asked their opinion.

Question, if pilots fly different ac do they do enough to familiarise themselves enough with the different variety? The last time I saw the pilot he was flying the avatars ac. A completely different ac altogether with greater ROC and tighter loop circumference.

Maybe if your keeping the display tight doing rolling manoeuvres but in a climb when you want height to do a loop? I wonder if he had set the altimeter correctly as give it another 200 ft he would have made it. If he came from North weald or Bournemouth that’s a different setting to Brighton AP.

Doubt it, as we get a spitfire multiple times a day and its pretty direct seeing as they are flying (according to that flight path) parallel.