mjrBruce,
I concur with every word you say, and I think there is light at the end of the tunnel. Your point about collecting policy of some smaller museums is a good one, I have seen this too. You have to put yourself in the Publics point of view. As you say no one is interested in a rare aircraft because it is rare, they want to see it looking good in the first instance, operating maybe after, as an added bonus, that is only fair. Many small groups overlook that, we realised this back in the late nineties and have never looked back. As medium sized collections are starting to improve greatly, it is unfortunately only highlighting those very small groups that are struggling, hence why they are unfairly highlighted in threads such as these. I also agree with your point about the BAPC, I lasted 2 meetings and was totally dumfounded, talk talk talk, no action. I was trying to be kind in the previous post, since their intentions are good, problem is(my impressions anyway) BAPC is run like an old school tie club, and no ground seems to be gained.
MJR
mjrAnyone can summise and express dissapointment/disgust, but until you have been involved in aircraft preservation with small collections, you will have no idea of the titanic task which confronts and the dedication required from all, however big or small.
Above comments from Colin are right on the money. We at GAM experienced similar problems to Lasham some years ago, lots of enthusiasm about, and plenty of self confessed ‘experts’ but very few stayers, (and in this situation you can just end up with half dissmantled wrecks everywhere) hence why many smaller collections struggle to make a big impact, and can come across as ‘not wanting or willing to trust extra help’, since they are cautious.
We developed a system for ensuring the aircraft are most important and that ‘time wasters’ (without wanting to sound harsh) are filtered out. It sounds clinical, but its the only way to ensure that proper progress is made with maximum efficiency, rather than twice as much distruction as progress.This I grant comes across as bitting the hand that feeds you, but it has to be this way. And of course that old chesnut ‘wedge’ is key too.
Also, there is nowhere near enough inter museum co-operation going on in the UK. We work with many other preservation groups and museums regularly, and pool workforce, skills, knowledge materials, jobs etc, which makes the task far easier. This originally was the goal of BAPC, which unfortunately so far appears to be lacking any direction, but a central organisation is what is required and patience may win out. Many airfarmes often get put on display and never touched, becasue funds and skills are not available to small groups. Better the potential, than not being rescued from the start, and allowing complete airframes to be scrapped.
MJR
mjr”However someone mistook this for the machine at Gatwick.
It could be argued that to acquire another to replace what you have isn’t that productive in the long term if the aircraft isn’t hangered . I am sure time will tell.”
Perspective is required, since that could be said for every single airframe world wide @ at any open air museum.
MJR
mjrThe tanks were used to allow lightning to perform duties that it was not designed for, i.e outside of QRA. Escort, CAP etc, to increase range of flight. tanks were mounted above the wing for various reasons,a major advantage being garvity fuel transfer, rather than all sorts of expensive upstream pumping and increased loading on the DC electrical bus, etc etc. Very ugly, but logical and effective
MJR
mjr”According to Wrecks and Relics £10,500 – with an estimate of £1,000-2,000…
But it was apparently a BDRT airframe, not hauled off the ranges; and I wouldn’t worry – Spitfires etc have been rebuilt from much less than that!!! (Retires to dodge inbound teddies!)”
Flood.
dont believe everything you read in Wrecks and Relicks, the figures quoted are complete rubbish and are way way off of the mark,watch this space though, we will soon replace this eye sore with a very nice and complete Jag, and we already have one serviceable Adour nicely stashed!
MJR
mjr”The Jag above is a rather unfair example in that I think the owner wasn’t expecting to receive such a total shed when he bought it. Story I heard was it arrived, much incredulous looks from the volunteers, shaking of heads and back to working on the aircraft they could actually help with. Given the damn good work put in on the others it seems only sensible to abandon the Jag and not waste precious resources on such a basket case.”
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Prints available at http://www.handmadebymachine.com/photosales.html
Dammien you hit the nail on the head there! The Jag is a basket case, as far as we are concerned, it has absolutely no potential what so ever, hence if it went back to the ranges from which it emerged, we wouldnt shed a tear.However if anyone knows where we can get a complete set of airframe skins,equipment and serviceable Adours for a Jag gr1A????
I dont think so!
MJR,
Gatwick Aviation Museum.
mjrBCAR ‘conditions’ for mig 17, far less strigent than for a lightning,
Although ‘complex’ due to reheat, fundemantal design still based on mig 15, which is no wear near as complicated or dangerous to operate as a lightning, therefore DA backup from Mikoyan-Gurevich is not imperrative, since a suitable operator, capable of maintaining the mig 17 in conjuction with a CAA agreed BCAR approved organisation in the UK is acceptable.
The BCAR approved organisations thus far nominated to the CAA for lightning operations, not good enough, Hence the need for Bae, who aren’t interested.
Roll on MIg 17!! It will be nice to see something interesting on the circuits.
mjr
mjr‘I have to say I think it is a bit of a shame that this post about the MiG.17 has turned into yet another one about Lightnings.
At the risk of making myself unpopular again, I really believe it is time we all recognised that despite how much we might wish it, we will not see a Lightning flying in UK skies.’
lightning does have an irritating habit of stealing the limelight!.And Steve, i think sadly, you are right, lightnig flying is a very very faint light. Anyway it will be very nice to see a mig17 fly grace uk airspace even if its adversary wont b.
mjr
mjrlightning
Firstly,
a distinction needs to be made here, between C of A and a permit to fly. Many mentions of ‘CofA’. A general C of A would NOT be issued to ex millitary types such as the lightning on the Uk register or any other ex millitary type over the weight of 2.7 tons. A ‘permit’ to fly is issued under a ‘CAP 632’, unless the millitary type is a civil derivative, in which case a ‘C of A’ can be issued. Any permit will only be issued where the aircraft meets all BCAR conditions and additional conditions set out in the permit, Along with a UK minimum operational and technical frame work
(which for a lightning, without design backing, you aint gonna meet in a million years!).
A lightning would be victim to many ‘conditions’ inherantly cost prohibitive, unless you had major design authority backing from Bae Systems, or possibly marshalls. The lightnings’ complexity (and ultimately the CAA alone are responsible for classifying complexity) type safety records, etc as many have pointed out, dont help. Compared to ANY other aircraft, including modern, the lightning is seriously specialist and fickle, requires impeccable servicing and specialist operation. The attrition rate alone is testiment.
Dont get me wrong, Never say never,I hope it flies again, I’m sure it would be possible to get a permit for the lightning, but it would take massive, massive investment from all concerned, most importantly agreement from D authority, which so far and unsurprisingly has not been forthcoming. (And we can thank in no small part the world wide proliferation of US litigeous culture), Put yourself in BAe’s position, if in doubt would you back it??
Since the application is still ‘active’ on CAA database, details will not be divulged, but I suspect the requirement for such colossal investment to meet all critera, was the main dampner for all parties concerned, including CAA and Design Authority. Until you get that, its a dead duck!
Similar story for the Shack, and unfortunately, Pelican 16 incident will only have strengthened the design authority and CAA position.
a hopefull MJR
🙂
mjrlightning
Firstly,
mjrmjrLightning ap’s
scot c,
Maybe you havent spoken to the right people yet. what are you restoring lightning wise, and what are your goals? static? running? this has a bearing on which aps will help You.
If you do not wish to discuss on open forum, private thread.
reagards,
MJR
mjrrunners
Canuck,
The runners are as follows.
1)Blackburn Buccaneer s.1 XN923. ran Boxing day 2003
2)De Havilland Sea Vixen FAW2 XS582. ran Boxing day 2003
3)Avro Shackleton mr3 ph3 WR982 ”J”. ran Nov1, 2003
4)De Havilland Venom fb.1 j-1605. Last full run 2002. Preparations to run soon.
5)Ercoupe 415D g-eghb. (airworthy) .
6)Westland Sikorski WS-55 whirlwind HAR10. XP398.
Airframes returning ‘live’
1) Percival Sea Prince T.1 G-GACA. approx 500 man hour re-build complete. To be run in the next 4 weeks for engine tests, followed by Taxi tests.
2) English Electric Lightning F53-671, ZF579. approx 4000 man hour Restoration ongoing. approx timescale for engine trials, a further 1500 man hours or end of 2005., which ever first.
3) Percival P65 pembroke C.1 XK885. approx 500 man hour restoration ongoing, no engine trials scheduled as of yet.
mjrvisiting times
Dez,
general Open days are now closed over the winter, however the collection can be viewed any day bay appointment over the winter period, for individual visits or group visits. If you ring up a few days before hand,no problem.
The official opening times for the new year are posted on the website http://www.gatwick-aviation-museum.co.uk, along with any contact numbers you require.
mjrshackleton
Dez,
I know you were not trying to rubbish us or any other smaller collection, you are welcome at GAM, as is everyone.We get hot under the collar at GAM when we see examples like the shack, in the state that they are, with the funding and resources that big collections such as DX have.
Please dont think I am picking on DX alone, for the most part DX do a good job, however many large collections are guilty of apathy. The shack is poignant ,since there are few left in the UK, the airframe isn’t beyond the point of no return, it will be in another 5 years though, corossion is becoming a serious problem on this airframe. Come on DX, if you are to save her,(and the victor) the old girl needs tlc now!!
Dont ignore it, cutting her up is not the answer, if you do it right,she can be saved outside with a lot less effort than you think!
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