do you guys remember in AFM or flight global some time ago.. (within the last 10 years) Dassault tried to push for a LIFT version of the Mirage 2000 twin seater?
I remember they had a model that was demoed that was navy or black colored.
Quite a bit of difference in operating a 20,000 ton VSTOL carrier and a much larger 37,000 ton STOBAR carrier, methinks.
LOLOL,
yeah sure..
if you went by that logic even the Russians can’t help the Indians because they barely have any experience operating a 37,000 ton carrier because they only operated a 60,000 ton one.
but nah, you gotta make it specifically STOBAR and specifically a certain weight to bring down the Indian Navy experience down to the Chinese right?
Indian Carrier experience
INS Vikrant R11 – 1961 – 1997. CATOBAR then STVOL in 1989
INS Viraat R22 – 1987 – now STOVL
INS Vikramaditya – 2013 – STOBAR
I bet you did not know that they have experience with arrested recovery right?
and catapults
and Short take off
oh yeah, they were also used in combat too.
PLAN’s experience before Liaonng?
Zip, Nada, None, Nein, 没有, никто
Don’t think pilot training would be the decisive factor for IAF not getting Su-35S. They do have other singel crew jet fighters in their fleet.
And lets not exaggerate the Foreign content on the MKI, its not that much.
but it sure jacked up the price.. which is the point of winter.
kitty kat, i made a m is calculation
its 8900 km
http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-distance-calculator.htm
start at FAA airport, go straight to tierra del fuego (around it) then up into Falklands.
i hope boeing and their swedish ikeamen wins and destroys lockheed and their korean underlings

In America the new trainer would be called the Peter Griffen
since we’re at it
Brazilian ones
We are all aware of that. However we can debate whether that decision is right or not. This is the purpose of the forum isn’t it? Info/idea exhange. We are not saving the world by talking here anyway.
On one hand, I tend to agree about the MKI part. I will never, ever claim MKI approaches to Su-34’s performance in strike role. Cockpit design, armor, range and nearly 22 tons of useful payload is clearly far ahead of what Su-30 is offering at the cost of less maneuverability. However, MKI was operational in 2002, Su-34 deployment took another 10 years. With money spent on Su-34, MKI could have been modified to be better suited to strike role. Lacks Range? Add wing EFTs. Lacks avionics? Upgrade radar and/or put a dedicated targeting pod. Lacks armor? Add MAWS and better ECM pods to compensate. Lacks Payload? Strengthen the airframe. Those would be simpler solutions to designing a new airframe and new radar/avionics set from scratch. With required modifications, MKI would match the Su-34 in many ways, excluding cockpit design, of course.
On the other hand I disagree, because Su-34 was in development since 1990s, and all the hard work on avionics and airframe was already done and by 2000s, there were 7 pre-production prototypes. Depending on the state of development, it might have required more money to upgrade MKI than building Su-34. For a paying customer (RuAF), it would be more tempting to wait for a few years to get a more capable product for similar price.
However I clearly disagree about going for Su-30 instead of Su-35. As an airframe, Su-30MKI only adds canards to to Su-30M, which is related to Su-27PU, and that is just the two seater version of baseline Su-27S. In other words, (I may be flammed for saying this but) Su-30MKI’s airframe is evolved/derived from, Su-27S and not much different technologically. IMHO MKI is the final evolution of the Su-27S airframe, where they reached the limit on engine size/thrust, avioncs fitment etc etc. Then come Su-35. Su-35 and Su-27 -if I understand correctly- is just like MiG-29 and MiG-29M: Looking similar from outside, but completely rebuilt internal structure. Such redesign would make Su-35 both lighter and stronger airframe which would support more powerful 117S, and possible provision for even more powerful engines. Bigger/different avionics bay to accomodate modern equipment. A redefined CG for newer electronics would improve agility. As such, I believe Su-35S is a leap ahead of Su-30MKI, and RuAF was right about pursuing it.
As for India, they already operate numerous MKI and they are already pursuing PAK FA, so I don’t think its logical for them to introduce Su-35 as a new aircraft type at this point.
however it is different.. because we already know Russia and India will purchase the Pak-fa.
in an MKI-PAK-FA combo, the Su-35 is not really needed. the Pak-fa will be the superior fighter than the Su-35 and the MKI is good enough to meet air defense demands until the Pak-fa comes into service. Indian funding is also turning the MKI into a more capable ground attack aircraft as well.
Comparing Su-30MKI to Su-35 is alot worse than comparing Tornado to EF.
Su-30MKI has the following disadvantages compared to Su-35
1. 4 ton extra weight based on MTOW
2. 4 ton less thrust
3. 2 tons less fuel
4. draggier raised twin seat cockpit with canards
5. obsolete construction
6. heavier old radar with old design cockpit. far less sensor fusion.
7. old fbw system.
8. airframe not design for 14 weopon stations. no wet stations or 5 heavy strike weopons.Su-35 kinematic performance will give it decisive edge in increasing range of weopons.
Su-30SM is just adding fast airframe addition to Ruaf not specialized plane like Su-34 or Su-35. for large airforce specialized planes are more effective.
well duh sherlock, we all know the su-35 is better than the su-30MKI. that was never the question
its a matter if the su-30MKI can meet the same job demands.
Last time Japan and it’s minions faced the SU-Mongol duo was in 1945 and in two weeks the former suffered tenfold the casualties of the later.
by that time Japan was depleted and that is besides the point. See Thobbes assertion
I hope you’re not referring to the infamous civilian massacres done by some South Korean units in Vietnam.
it is what it is.. the South Koreans were good at killing Vietnamese.. you decide what kind of Vietnamese they were
How SU wasn’t an European power when most of it’s population lived in the European part of the country and Slavic people were the biggest ethnic group among it’s population?
at its peak a majority of SU’s population was on the Asian side (west of the Urals). You are confusing it for Russia where the majority of the population is on the European side. SU included more than just Russia.
secondly people aside, both SU and Russia, majority of the key resources and military industries that give SU and Russia its power are on the Asian side. (look at where the oil is, the aircraft factories, etc).
Finally Slavic people means nothing these days. its just a language group. Serbians and Russians are both Slavs and look nothing alike despite calling each other brothers. Ukrainians are more closely related to Russians than Serbian yet they hate each other.
Finally Russians are unique within Slavic speakers because many contain strong Mongol and Tatar admixture, hence their unique features.
As we speak Putin is playing cupcake a Tatar gymnast, their child will be the next Russo-Tatar leader of the Federation.
good, lets hope the Boeing-Saab trainer knocks out the Lockheed-KAI one.
Take it like that: You hve a 4000km opponents to deal with and strike for days at that range (tactical).
Then let me know how many sorties you’d be able to generate after two or three days with an MKI.
Of course, you’ll tell me that Russia hve more than a bunch of 22s and 160s but… hey… You don’t start moving those until you’ve make sure you’ve filled the airspace with your own fighter and SEAD (Georgia anyone ?).
34 is an amazing asset. It just lacks stealth.
yes.. because Russia intends to launch sorties from a base at the opposite end of Russia instead of using one closer to the theater of action.
that’s why during the Georgian campaign they were sending planes from Murmansk.
I’m sure there’s many Imperial Japanese types in service with JSDF – Japanese warrior soul is such that even 90 years olds are better soilders than Western soy latte drinking soldiers.
Shame Imperial Japanese Army was pretty poor and it’s only advantage was fanaticism. E.g. Japanese lessons from Khalkin Gol debacle was not better training, better logisitics, better junior commanders, better intel or better equipment. No their main lesson was that spiritiual factors and morale need more emphasising. Because as we all know, some Japanese equipped with nothing but spirit performed better than Soviet tank divisions in 1939.
As for South Korea, for a country “living on the edge of war,” they somehow let a North Korean submarine sink one of their corvettes. Hardly a state of readiness now is it?
I love how people denigrate the West. There’s little a thing call jealousy and it appears to be pop it’s head up all the time.
the Japanese may have lost the overall battle, but in terms of equipment and personnel damage.. the Japanese and their Manchurian/Chinese slaves destroyed way more planes and tanks than the Soviets-Mongols did. They destroyed the numerically superior Russian military in past wars too.
South Korea is not going to wage a war over a corvette, they have more to lose than N.Korea in a war. During the Vietnam war however, South Koreans were very good at killing Vietnamese people.
The Chinese mostly fought other Asian countries in recent history, the one time they fought a non Asian power, Soviet Union (actually SU is more of an Asian power than European really..but for the sake of this thread).. they did quite poorly as the Soviets spanked them around the river
What airfield in French Polynesia is only 8300 km from the Falklands? And note that Tomcat was talking about Buenos Aires, which is quite a lot further away unless you overfly Chile.
I make it slightly more than 8300 from Guyane. It’s almost 8400 via Fernando de Noronha, which is Brazil. You’d need to go slightly further out. And the Brazilians would plot your route unless you flew even further out.
Note that Tomcat suggested Senegal. That’s 8400 km. That means sending a C-135FR ca 7400 km to top up the Mirage. That’s close to half its ferry range, so it will have needed refuelling itself, just to get there with fuel for the Mirage. Either that one then has to orbit, waiting for the Mirage to come back, which would need it to have plentiful fuel aboard, i.e. it was topped up thousands of km from base, or another one has to come out to collect the Mirage – again, being refuelled en route. The Mirage will have needed refuelling at least twice (unless it was unarmed & carrying full external fuel) just to get to the last refuelling point, & it’ll need refuelling again on the way home. In practice, refuellings would be more frequent.
Tomcat reckoned it could be done by two C-135FRs, & suggested I look at the specifications. I have done. With CFM56 engines it can take 68000 kg to 2400 km from base, & nothing to 8800 km from base. With the original engines, that’s greatly reduced (by ca 30%), & French tankers still had the original engines in 1982. I reckon a Mirage IV would need about 60000 kg to be delivered to it in the air to do the trip.
You’d need a tanker to refuel the tanker to refuel the tanker to get the Mirage on target, & other tankers to refuel the tankers which refuelled the last tanker, so they could get back to base. I doubt that France could put enough in the air. Its total fleet was 11 at the time (12 bought, one crashed in 1972). There’d also be the issue of pilot fatigue. The poor Mirage IV pilot would be exhausted, & trying to link up with tankers (not easy) to get home.
It took 11 Victors to put one Vulcan over the Falklands, with tight margins. The Victor was a less capable tanker, but the Vulcan had a much greater range than Mirage IV & the distance to target was less.
FAA airport. if the French really wanted to, they can convert part of the airport for wartime operations
It is hard to fault the Su-30MKI, it is a very good aircraft in its own right and one of the top selling fighters so far of the new millennium. Similarly, the Su-35S is a logical evolution of previous Flanker variants, addressing most of the few remaining weaknesses (certain avionics, empty weight). Nonetheless, it is a bit sad that the Su-35S and Su-30MKI (and Su-34) exist as separate programmes – it would have been more efficient for Russia to cancel their bespoke solutions (Su-34 and at the time Su-27M) and pursue what became the Su-30MKI as a joint procurement with India from the outset. As it is, the Su-30SM is as much a stimulus package for IAPO (a rather useful one, but still) as it is a genuine attempt to expedite modernization of the fighter fleet and that need to speed things up would also have been greatly mitigated if the cardinal elements of the Su-35S had already been incorporated into an earlier joint project with India.
Similarly, the Su-34 is a great long-range strike airframe, but payload/range capacity for strike is not something the post-Soviet Russian air force was ever especially lacking in. What they needed most urgently was not a new, expensive strike *airframe* but modern sensors and weaponry for existing long-range aviation, plus a cost-effective multi-role platform that could replace several aging tactical types as quickly as possible. The Su-30MKI and Su-35S may not be quite as outstanding performers in the strike role as the Su-34, but they’re still among the best in the world and therefore plenty good enough – especially when teamed with upgraded Backfires and Blackjacks that are even better than the Hellduck could ever hope to be.
So, in an ideal world with more far-sighted leaders in Russian politics, military and industry it should have been comprehensive avionics upgrades for the strategic bombers and hundreds of “joint Super-Flankers” ordered by the middle of the 2000s and Su-34 (airframe) development canceled rather than a drip feed of three different types and little to no upgrading of long-range aviation by the end of the decade.
that’s what I said.
some time ago, i was discussing with some one.. either TR1 or Haarvy or some one
that Russia should’ve piggy backed off Indian Su-30MKI and standardized off the MKI albeit with a Russian version (in other words what would become the Su-30SM?) and not go for Su-34,35, and all other strange variants of the 30.
but the replies are always like “but the MKI can’t do every thing the 34 does.. the 34 has a special role.. This is Russia, we need specialized aircraft”.
but they always ignore the question if whether that role is even relevant to begin with.
had they standardized on the MKI, they probably would’ve had more advanced flankers in service by now and retire more Fulcrums and early flankers.
This is a thread about the differences between J-11B and Su-35S. It’s a small step to start talking about a similar rumored SAC project which is more suitable to compare with Su-35S.
A few “off topic” posts will occur in every thread and in this one it was hardly derailing the topic (well now it is), seeing as it was fairly relevant to the title. No big deal.
http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-03/25/content_16344333.htm
seems like more and more so Su-35 sale to China is legit lol
so wouldn’t this threaten a supposed SAC project that’s the similar to the Su-35?
or perhaps the SAC project is an Su-35 clone?
could this ship’s deck be angled?
i noticed its a big larger and heavier than the Minas Gerais and slightly below the Foch/Sao paulo