Liger30why will there be so much space on the CVFs? Oh that another arguement!
Because the RAF is trying, with large success, of robbing the navy of all rights and ownership on the carrier aircrafts, with the valiant help of successive, demented governments.
I agree that reworking the existing Sea Kings does make a lot of sense whilst the proposed HC3 conversion seems to be shaping up to be a disaster waiting to happen. The plan is probably to only deploy them when actually needed so the bare minimum of alteration swill be carried out as the platforms will go into deep maintenance after the deployment has finished. Another case of save a bit now and spend a lot later.
That might be true, but only if the RAF has its way: that is what the junior service is advocating for, in order not to lose anything to the Navy’s advantage.
Luckily, a letter of David Cameron himself to a PM in the last month confirmed that the plan is to modify and transfer 25 Merlin HC3 to the Fleet Air Arm.
As to the “bargain” of the Sea King upgrade, i struggle to see the real advantage of:
Changing engines. Both Sea King and Merlin likely will require it, so why do it on Sea King?
Changing wiring. Changing the wiring on the Sea King has any chance of really being cheaper than changing the wiring of the Merlin…?
Changing cockpit. Again, what would be the advantage of doing it on Sea King and not on Merlin…? Especially when the Merlin can be kitted with the same cockpit of the HM2 with obvious commonality advantages?
Keeping in service a reduced fleet of Sea Kings and all the logistics. Advantageous? No, definitely no, compared to closing a whole fleet line, while concentrating all Merlins, their training and logistics in Culdrose. There’s already the Puma staying in line with 20 helicopters without even a clear mission destined for them, with the cost of training crews, ground crew, and all the logistic tail.
Besides, we already know that the target is a “two-platforms” flying line for all services.
The RAF wanted the Puma and the Chinooks. Fine, that’s two. The Army gets Wildcat and Apache, the Navy the Merlins and Wildcat. It is actually logical.
Without considering the Performances:
Sea King HC4
Range: 396 km / 640 km
Payload: 24 soldiers (up to 27)
Underslung load 2.4 tons
Max speed: 125 knots
Merlin HC3
Range: 927 to 1389 km
Payload:
* 24 seated troops or
* 45 standing troops or
* 16 stretchers with medics
Useful load: 5,443 kg (12,000 lb)
Underslung load of up to 4100 kg
Max Speed: 167 knots
Merlin HC3 entered service in 2001. The Sea King first flew in 1969, and is progressively being retired from service, in all its variants, all around the world.
I definitely do not see the bargain of keeping the Sea King. Quite the opposite, actually.
Liger30Maybe. Or maybe no. The MOD might have showed shortcomings more than once, but i’m not willing to play engineer and go say they are wrong on the HC3 conversion by launching ideas. I expect people in the planning teams to have some more knowledge than me of the helicopter, of the industry, and of the chances to choose from.
Also because, honestly… you are proposing to change:
Rotor
Gearbox
wiring
avionics
cockpit
engines
and add in sensors.
Against a planned marinization of the HC3 that might reportedly not even involve folding-tail, seen as not indispensable since the CVF will offer lots of space anyway.
I have my doubts.
Liger30You know all to well that the Puma upgrade and fleet were the first two things i wanted to see cut in the SDSR, with the savings used to buy new AW101 Merlin to full naval standard for the replacement of the Sea King HC4. Of course it would have been the best solution! 20 or so Merlin fully navalized, plus the HC3 remaining in the RAF hands.
The Puma crews could have been (if cost-effective) moved onto the Chinook family to take on the 12 new HC6 when they will arrive, with the Sea King crews of the Navy starting to work on the RAF HC3 to, in time, move on the new-built Merlins acquired for them.
But, since the RAF has won its fight to keep the Puma and the navy is NOT going to get any new helicopter, it is IMPERATIVE for the Commandos’s survival that the mid-life upgrade (that is planned, for obvious reasons, around 2014/15 anyway) includes the necessary navalization measures, so that the transfer can happen.
That is what i say. It is evident that the HC3 will require quite some extensive modifications… but the cost of those is evidently still inferior to buying new airframes. The Merlin HC3 is due for an extensive upgrade anyway, and the point is to ensure navalization is included in the work.
Then, of course, you know i’m the first who will agree to saying that scrapping Puma altogether to get, in exange, the option for 8 more HM1 to be converted to HM2 standard exercised, plus a new buy of 20/25 AW101 in “Sea Utility” configuration would have been better. Sadly, this will not be, and since the option is “convert the HC3 or lose the Commandos Helicopter Force altogether”, my favour goes all the way on the first option.
EDIT: i noticed your question only after posting.
Re-build the Sea King is likely to be costlier than converting the HC3, and it would still give us an ancient airframe, at a time when Sea King is going slowly out of service and into history.
Interestingly, the German navy is hoping to get funding later this year to buy up to 30 new helicopters to replace its own Sea Kings: for what has been said, despite so many Sea Kings still in service around the world, getting spare parts for them is getting costlier and more and more complex.
With the SAR needing replacement, the ASaC to be retired by 2016 and everything, it makes far more sense to simply close the whole Sea King fleet and its logistics. This will allow the greatest saving.
The advantage of the Merlins going to the navy is that they will be centered into the hands of a single user, too. The Navy is advocating to have the HC3 navalized and upgraded to same cockpit and software of the HM2 to have the fleet on pretty much the very same standards. It promises to bring better efficiency. Besides, the HM2 after the change of avionics is reportedly more than 200 kg lighter than before, even with the flying-test instrumentations on board… The HC3 would greatly benefit from this kind of weight saving measures.
The error was back when the HC3 was bought, land-only and for the RAF… The RN wanted 66 Merlins in ASW and Transport versions back then, but was denied them (in a very, very stupid way). The service had offered to get the Fleet Air Arm equipped entirely with Merlins, replacing even the Lynx if it was given enough Merlins.
Had the government/MOD listened, things now would look a lot better.
Liger30Bah. The Merlin is said to be the best utility platform in the world. It was even chosen for the programme for the Marine One US president helicopter fleet. It can lift 4 tons and some underslung, carries 24 fully equipped soldiers, can be fitted with Miniguns at side doors and rear ramp and has a range far, far greater than that of the Sea King.
Sure, if you paragon it to a Chinook, it does come short on several fronts… But have you tried comparing Sea King HC4 and Merlin…?
I’m quite sure the Commandos are very, very happy of what they would get with Merlin.
The AW101’s fuselage has a volume of 31.91 m3 and the cargo compartment is 6.5 m in length, 2.3 m wide and 1.91 m high. The military version of the AW101 can accommodate up to 24 seated or 45 standing combat troops and their equipment. Alternative loads include a medical team and 16 stretchers, and cargo pallets. The cabin floor and rear ramp are fitted with flush tie-down points, a semi-automatic cargo release unit (SACRU). The ramp (1.91×2.3 m) can take a 3,050 kg load, allowing it to carry vehicles such as Land Rovers. A cargo hook under the fuselage can carry external loads of 5,440 kg via the use of a SACRU. A rescue hoist and a hover trim controller are fitted at the cargo door.
While this is probably data of the very latest batches of Merlin (with BERP V rotor and other improved bits), the HC3 offers some very impressive performances, and depending on what the Midlife/Conversion programme involves, the performances could get even better. Since the rotor is to be changed anyway, for example, it is to be expected that a better one will be fitted… And the change is already massive: the BERP V makes the helo several knots faster while adding 850 kg of additional payload that can be carried.
So, no. I definitely would not complain about Merlin for the Commandos.
Liger30Plans for marinization of Merlin HC3 and HC3A to proceed and be refined as part of this year’s MOD’s work:
The British government this year is expected to develop a detailed plan for a mid-life update of Royal Air Force (RAF) Merlin Mk. 3 helicopters to prepare them to take over for retiring Royal Navy Sea Kings.
The activity is advancing in parallel with flight trials and production of the Royal Navy’s own upgrade of the Merlin, with two of four Mk.2 prototypes now in flight trials. RAF operates 22 Merlin Mk.3s and six Mk.3As, which are due for updates in 4-6 years. The plan is to modify them into maritime-capable helicopters—adding the folding head and tail and tie-downs—as well as installing structural and avionics updates. A Defense Ministry official says the helicopters would almost certainly receive the cockpit avionics upgrade now being put on the Royal Navy Merlin Mk.2 to reduce cost and have fleet commonality. Along with the equipment changes, both the cockpit avionics and mission workstations are undergoing a major overhaul to ease operations. One of the upgrades allows each position to have an independent moving map.
The helicopters are likely to be transferred to the Royal Navy, although RAF officials are still fighting to retain them for utility roles and operate the rotorcraft, as needed, off ships. How many of the RAF Merlins would be upgraded, and the exact phasing of the service introduction, is due to be resolved this year, a program official says. One issue that will drive the timing is the operational pace in Afghanistan.
The Navy should won, this time. RAF agreed to “Two Platforms” plan and got the Puma upgrade. Puma + Chinook = 2 Platforms.
The Navy will be the only user of the Merlin type, that summed to Lynx Wildcat gives, what a surprise, 2 platforms.
No news yet on the MASC platform to replace Sea King ASaC, but that’s “less urgent” since it is needed in service in 2020 at the earlier, in time for the carrier strike capability return. Hopefully, after the “near-contract” of 2001 and the subsequent cancellation because “we’d need to install catapults on CVF”, the buy of 4/6 Hawkeye E2D from Northrop Grumman will return full force as an option.
Otherwise, most logical choice would be to convert the 8 non-updated Merlin HM1 platforms. We will see.
Personally, i’m very glad to hear the Merlin HC3 for Commandos is alive and moving. I was waiting for this news by quite some time.
Liger30With 12 aircrafts embarked, each flying 3 sorties a day (Surge) and 2 sorties a day (Standard) you are looking at 36 sorties on the first day and 24 on the following days, i’d say.
At 36-strong airwing, the CVF is to generate 108 sorties on first-day Surge and then 74 sorties a day for the successive 10 days followed by 20 more days of operations at a rhythm of 36 sorties per day.
The F35C is expected to be able to sustain 4.4 sorties a day, following simulations, so it is possible that we are looking at a Surge capability of 4 sorties plus a normal ratio of 3 a day for the following days, too.
Liger30You realize that this would mean the Royal Navy would not have NOTHING at all to replace Ocean with, as well, thus no LPH, no power projection capability at all, and that the whole F35 programme for the UK would be terminated consequently, yes…? Or, worse, continue but deliver only a few F35A that would be just useless toys for the RAF.
The CVF is going to replace the Invincibles and Ocean both, and it’ll better keep them for dear life.
Liger30Save for the Nimrod drift, i consider the other posts on topic.:D
Don’t we make the same errors of the MOD, talking about aircraft carriers procurement without reasoning about the “Aircraft” part XD!
And anyway, actual updates on construction are far-in-between, so there’s plenty of room to follow the rest of the CVF-related news such as EMALS and F35C progress, i think.
Liger30Some updates on the construction work going on in Govan:
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/editor-s-picks/everything-s-shipshape-on-this-big-build-1.1077658
As well as housing auxiliary equipment for heating and ventilation systems, it will have storage space and sleeping and living quarters for some of the battle-ready crew.
Once completed, Lower Block 03 will weigh 9300 tonnes – more than 2300 tonnes heavier than each of the six new-generation Type 45 destroyers recently built at the Clyde yards.
The block will be fitted with an assortment of 10,000 pipes and almost a quarter of a mile of cable.
Standing 23 metres tall and stretching more than 63m, with a depth of almost 39m, it will have enough space for 535 berths.
Holy hell. 😀 It sure sounds impressive everytime.
Liger30Their adversion to buy abroad (read American), i guess. Italy is acquiring 4 ATR-based platforms as interim stopgap, and the plan is to eventually get rid of the Atlantique as soon as a decent plan for replacement is drafted.
Even if France does pursue the Atlantique upgrade, the UK has no interest at all in embarking on such a platform these days.
From Nimrod MRA4 to Atlantique…? Like, from Stars to Stalls in light-speed.
Liger30I for one hope a MPA platform returns in the UK service as soon as possible. I keep considering the loss of Nimrod totally demented to say the very, very least.
But Kinloss was already offered as possible home for the troops coming back from Germany by the locals, that need it in a way or another as economic stimulus.
Anyway, i personally firmly believe that the first tragedy, that inevitably will happen soon or later, at sea will cause a lot of political bickering AND the urgent return of a decent marittime recon coverage and will make a lot of people say “had we had the Nimrod…!” and all those stupid things that are said every time the damage is done.
Only thing i don’t know is WHEN it will happen.
And how many people will die because of it.
Atlantique
Gods, NO! Better nothing than that idiotic airplane, that besides has already been replaced by Germany, soon will be dropped by Italy and France will follow one day not so far away!
Makes more sense to buy 8 Poseidon P8 and have them in a joint UK/US pool of assets like with Rivet Joint.
And if France eventually decides to finally replace the Atlantique as well (not going to live that much longer…), it may be a Tripartite joint fleet pool.
Either way, the plan for now is:
31st March 2011 Kinloss Station closed and be placed into care and maintenance
Liger30Dundee already has an airport, albeit limited to regional airliners by runway length. I seriously doubt that the Dundee area can support two airports. Small net gain perhaps if Leuchars becomes an airport and Dundee closes as a result.
I read in the press that firms such as Ryanair, i think, are interested and already asked the MOD at least twice. The first time the answer was no since Leuchars was to be the Typhoon base. But now things have changed, and if there’s any real chance to mitigate the impact of closure of Leuchars while at the same time saving Lossie, it is the way the government goes.
On 14 December the news came out, included on the Telegraph, and it was announced as SURE.
Later came the usual “there are not firm decisions for the moment”, but i think the “rumour” was actually quite believable. Here is the article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/8199721/RAF-Lossiemouth-to-be-saved-at-expense-of-Leuchars.html
There has been speculation it [Leuchars] could be turned into an international airport to replace or work alongside the commercial one at Dundee as part of a review of the UK’s military airbases.
However, unlike Dundee, the base has a long and recently upgraded runway that can accommodate larger passenger jets, including flights from America. easyJet has previously looked at using Leuchars and golf tourism flights already land there.
The decision also means that RAF Marham in Norfolk will remain open because it has the only RAF Tornado servicing facility.
We should consider the possibility that one or more of the bases leaving RAF use might become home to Army units returning from Germany. Which has better access to training grounds and existing Army infrastructure?
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One great favorite is Lyneham. The station is scheduled to close in 2012 with the majority of its personnel and other assets moving to RAF Brize Norton, as the C130K retires and the J are all moved to Brize, where the C17, KC330 and A400M will all be based as well.
The base is expected to be used to house many troops coming home from Germany. It has the best access and facilities.
Kinloss follows, mainly on political grounds, as strong candidate for a piece.
Leuchars would have a very hard time getting any at all, to say the least.
Liger30They have just spent a fortune on converting Leuchars from a Tornado base into a Typhoon base.
The government dare not be seen to have wasted that money by having to spend the same amount again converting another Tornado base into a Typhoon base.
I have to question this affirmation. Leuchars still has one Tornado F3 Squadron and one Typhoon squadrons alone. I’m not aware of any particular “great work” or fortune spent in upgrading Leuchars specifically for the Typhoon.
The “Close Leuchars, retain Lossie” is an hypothesis gaining momentum because:
1) Moray saw Kinloss close already, and the economy of the area is heavily based upon the bases. If Lossie closes, the damage will be monstrous and politically and economically impossible to accept.
2) Lossiemouth is a large base, with good runways and structures, and it could take 3 Squadrons of Typhoon no problem. It is also reasonably good-placed to take on QRA North role.
3) Leuchars apparently has good chances of becoming a new, civilian airport if the RAF leaves it. The government might make some money out of it on top of the savings, and the economy of the area would suffer a lot less from the closure.
4) The Tornado GR4 OCU and training establishment are based in Lossie. Marham is winning on Lossie because it is easier to move the Training from Lossie to Marham than it is to move the Tornado GR4 logistics from Marham to Lossie. But move none of the two is obviously even better.
If Leuchars is closed, the Typhoon is not damaged since its main base, for both training and logistics, is Coningsby. If Lossie survives, the Tornado GR4 needs no transfer and stays in Lossie, so no expense.
The Tornado frontline squadrons can instead still move to Marham and centralize there to achieve the desired savings and make room in Lossie for the next two Squadrons of Typhoons expected to form next year. All together, this ensures probably the greatest overall saving of money, and is thus a very likely scenario.
Liger30The most likely outcome now appears to be the closure of Leuchars instead.
The Tornado GR4 Squadrons such as 617° will move to Marham and be centralized there.
Leuchar’s Typhoons Squadrons (the 6°, 43° and possibly 111°) would transfer to Lossie, which would become the new QRA Alert North centre. The 15° Squadron, the Tornado OCU, would remain in Lossiemouth along with the Tornado training equipment and simulator.
Since the F35C will be centralized in a single squadron, at least initially, Lossie could still get the F35 Squadron replacing the 15° in 2020, but if, as planned, the F35 fleet expands successively, the other squadrons might be based somewhere else. (Marham…?)
If the F-35s are based at Lossiemouth is there any reason they could not carry out QRA north given that only 1 squadron would be on the carrier? If there was a surge surely a detachment of Typhoons could cover?
I don’t think the RAF wants a Strike platform as QRA asset. Besides, there will only be ONE active squadron of F35C at least for the first times, and they will never be that many even in the best case.
So, no. It does not appear plausible to expect them to cover the QRA role as well.
Besides, you’d have to re-relocate once more the 3 Typhoon Squadrons. I don’t think it makes sense.
Liger30F-35s in RN markings? How about these?;):D
Totally adorable.
That’s what the UK F35C should look like in 2020.
The RAF should keep its hand off for once.
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