Replacement of Saxon a priority, where have you been for the last 9 years? I think that the MRAPs will replace Saxons until Future Protected Vehicle comes to fruition in the 2020s, ’cause much as I’d like to see the RG35 take its place, the money for it does not exist.
Believe me i’ve been here. And i was astonished by the demented decision to shut down the FRES Utility procurement, which was URGENTLY needed.
It is EVIDENT that for now the army deploys Mastiff and the like, and NOT Saxon, but this does not erase the need for a new fleet of APCs for a lot of good reasons:
1)Lots of older Mastiff are already worn like Hell because of Afghanistan’s extreme conditions of usage.
2)Mastiff 2 is more modern, but the army is still low on numbers and more worrysome on spare parts, so much that many are unavailable for long time before it is possible to repair them.
3)Mastiff and Ridgback are good for facing RPG7 and IEDs, but they are good against little else. They have many limits, the limits of “Light armour” added to the limit that they are NOT light, actually.
4) UORs have given the british army a long term NIGHTMARE in terms of logistic and support: Mastiff 1, 2, blocks in between, Ridgback, Vector, Husky, Wolfhound, and so along. This will cost a couple of legs and both eyes to maintain, and there’s no commonality at all.
5) There is not enough Mastiffs fully operative and with life left to equip decently a single Mechanized brigade. This means that most of the divisions in the Uk are stuck to Saxon, or, even more ridiculously, to feet. This is both unacceptable and embarrassing.
The smartest suggestion i heard about this mess probably came from Think Defence, albeit i’m not sure anymore:
Future Mechanized Infantry of the UK army should retain One “Heavy Duty” Warrior batalion, one/two “Medium” with whatever will be the FRES Utility (most likely a 8×8 vehicle) and the last “light/Counterinsurgency” with Mastiffs and Ridgbacks and associated Wolfhound support vehicles. Then we’ll have Jackal and Coyote units.
Husky and Snatch Vixen should both be replaced by versions of the Light Patrol Protected Vehicle, either Ocelot or SP400, depending on what will finally be picked up (hopefully SP400).
Vector and other UOR vehicles should be eliminated to reduce at least in part the logistic burden that will be a nightmare for the army in the future.
Anyway, what it is sure is that you can’t just come and deny the need for a replacement for Saxon.
Most likely, no. Unified armed services never really worked that well, and i see politics screwing up the military even more if it was to become a single, unitary entity.
To answer your question, though, my personal belief is that the UK in a not-too-far future will need to develop new capabilities to protect its home soil. An invasion, and even old-style bombardment from the air are unlikely, and the Typhoons and Navy can deal with both scenarios.
New technology though opened new fronts in term of homeland defence: a new need at some point will be an anti-ballistic missile for the defence of home soil.
I’ll bring you the example of Italy: it joined the MEADS (with Germany and US) and the land launched version of PAAMS Aster 30 (together with France), and both have anti-ballistic capability (for current commitments, in terms of anti-aircraft commitments they both are overkill since there’s not real threat from the air), which is a good thing because, differently from the UK, southern italy is already well within the range of latest model Iranian ballistic missiles.
Soon enough, as the new versions gain more and more range, the UK will have to carefully value joining NATO efforts to develop anti-ballistic capabilities both at sea and on land. NATO is already discussing this, actually, and the US are actively lobbying the alliance to join the plan, officially said to cost only 200 USD million dollars in ten years. The price is suspiciously low, and i’m not very aware of what the proposal truly is about. It seems difficult that any serious deployment of interceptor missiles can be funded with so little money.
However, this is a future area of possible developments. The informally announced possible “Aster 45” is a possible future joint development. Otherwise, the Type 45 could get 16 MK41 VLS cells, with not just Tomahawks but Standard SM3 anti-ballistic missiles too. The US is also developing land-launched SM3, so this may be a good solution for the UK too.
The SM3 would also partially fill up another large gap in capability: anti-satellite weaponry. With the vital importance of satellites, it is essential to be potentially able to shot down unwanted watchers.
Russia, US and China have this capability, and other users of SM3 missiles like Japan are potentially capable to shot down satellites as well.
This is another capability that the new face of the world will at some point dictate for the future.
Had not been for Cold War treaties spurred by american ASAT missile development, it would already be a well developed branch of military capability.
Always in the area of Air Defence, CAMM should be at some point supplemented with a new, more deployable C-RAM system. Ideally, such system should be self-deployable in units that can be moved around underslung by a Chinook so that Afghanistan-like FOBs could be given their own umbrella of protection, in mostly every situation.
Mortars and rockets, after all, will continue to be weapons of choice of guerrilla in the near future, and be massively used in more conventional warfare too without doubt, so it certainly would not be wasted money.
OTO Melara for example mounted a naval 76 mm Radar-guided Davide gun on a 8×8 armoured chassis for air and C-RAM defence even on the move, but even more interesting is the Porcupine, a Vulcan-based “Land CIWS” that promises to be more “self-contained” and thus easier to deploy than the Centurion, that is quite a big ass system to move around!
C-RAM should be getting more attention in the future, since force protection grows more and more important.
Part of the security of the nation will also be about cyberwarfare: a large scale hacker attack could have incredible consequences for any european nation, and it would be both a blow to the economy and to the effective capability of the armed forces to respond to any successive physical attack.
The thick of the focus should be on expeditionary warfare, however, both in form of “forcible entry” or “simpler” operations that are anyway most likely to happen far away from European and UK soil.
Thus the army should adapt to ensure it can make the best use of the strategic air mobility and of the transport and support the navy can offer. Ideally, the army should indeed become a projectile that RAF and RN could “fire” in the intended area and support.
Armor will still be needed, but in forms a bit different from the largely undeployable Challenger II: that’s why the Army has a requirement for a FRES (ASCOD based at this point, realistically) Direct Fire variant, that will get a smoothbore 120 mm gun (possibly autoloaded, it would also save manpower and thus give long term savings: the T62 autoloader in the URSS times saved 95 men from every tank regiment by removing the need for the gun loader man) and replace in the long term the CR2.
Another gap in UK’s sovereign capability is imagery and earth-observation satellites. Even Italy’s got its own COSMO-Skymed constellation, and France too.
The UK has been relying on US-supplied satellite imagery, but sincerely this seems a bit limited way to tackle the objective need for them.
A few months ago there were indications on the press that the government may be interested in creating a Skynet-like consortium for putting into orbit a UK-owned constellation of Earth Observation satellites.
Just like with the COSMO-Skymed, the idea was to fund it not with just defence money, since it would be used by civilian departments as well, and the excess of capability would be sold to users around the world just like unsued bandwidth with the Skynet.
The idea was admittedly fantastic and long due, and i hope the SDSR will not be an obstacle on this promising path, that hopefully the birth of the UK Space Agency will only make easier to follow.
Anyway, back to immediate needs, we all know most of them. New frigates, new oil tankers for the fleet, and such. The Army’s most urgent need, i will add, (after the replacement of Scimitar, since the ASCOD SV has been accorded precedence) however, is the replacement of the Saxon in the mechanized brigades.
Really, men, they are embarassing relics that even the oldest BTR vehicles of old soviet russia probably beat.
They would be great for Police against riots, but it is amazing that the army hasn’t yet got a replacement vehicle for them. The termination of FRES Utility was a major failure, ultimately. It is a requirement that can’t be ignored for too long still.
Maybe, and maybe not. As far as I am aware, Daring hasnt had a deployment yet.
HMS Daring deploys this fall in America to take part in joint training with a US carrier group. That will be her first true deployment. She’s due to depart soon, if she already didn’t.
Liger I hope you are right, I really do but I am not sure a Times reporter would understand the difference between 40 active aircraft and 40 aircraft total.
Totally true. My hope and analysis sparkled from reading that Fox was aiming for 70 planes in its submission to the NSC, and from the fact that i tend to think David & Co. won’t be mad enough to supply to the press the image of a 65000 tons carrier sailing with 12 fighters on board…
Because that would be a depressing image to say the very least, and it would make EVERYONE unhappy. I hope they are smart enough to avoid such a situation.
To say the helicopter situation is muddled doesn’t even come close. Sea King upgrades got binned to offset the Puma upgrades and the Chinook purchase, however UK SAR duties were going out to PFI, which then got binned, so exactly what aircraft will be taking over that role?
The Puma are going to be lost without replacement. The Sea King HC4 are the ones who go in five years, hopefully to be replaced with the Merlins, so that the navy can reunite all Merlins. The closure of RAF Benson goes in that direction too. With the order for Chinooks going down to 12, RAF Odinham will be able to take them all.
RAF Aldergrove may be in danger with the loss of Puma choppers.
It’ll be interesting to see how the Airborne Early Warning service on the carriers is provided. To get rid of the Sea King ASaC as well in five years, a new platform must be ordered in rather short time.
As to the SAR service, i think the Sea King for the SAR will keep going a good few years still. Eventually, the 2015 review will announce a revised PFI contract. Can’t see funds being released to buy new SAR helicopters…
@RVF Harrier
This is the best reading i can suggest you about the studies made in relation to the now officially-dropped “Mighty O” replacement:
http://navy-matters.beedall.com/lphr.htm
Merit for that and all the other wonderful pages is Richard Beedall’s.
Man, attention!
The article talks of an available air group of 40 planes, and that means ACTIVE planes.
More likely, that will be 3 squadrons, each of 12 planes, half of the originally planned squadrons.
So, 70 planes will have to be acquired, roughly, to have 40 planes active.
40 planes, with the need to form an OCU and OEU, would mean having perhaps 20 or so active planes if not less.
70 planes is also exactly what earlier articles reported this week in the “Fox’s Plan” for submission at the National Security Council. I consequently hope we are looking at a total buy of 70 planes, all things considered.
Well… if this is it, i’m actually relieved. I’d like to have more details, but my analysis of the matter is that the 5 Type 42 are out within 2013, as Beedall suggested. The Type 22 will follow, and this is already a bit of a blow… One navy commitment will have to go, definitely.
Hard to see what that could be… Operation Atalanta against somali pirates seems impossible to drop. Same goes for South Atlantic.
May it be the Caribean deployments that go…? It is the only one i can see happening with overall limited political/strategical consequences. That’s America’s front garden after all, so no real pressing need to deploy a ship there.
Of course, even so the navy will have an hard time having ships available for all the missions they load on it.
I still say that scrapping 8 Sandown would have been a less damaging move by far.
HMS Ocean not replaced. Sad and mad, but expected. We all have known it for quite a long time, and accepted that a CVF will have to do LPH work. Not excellent, but hey… if the Mighty O stays until the end of her life in 2018, so that there’s (hopefully) no big gap before PoW is operative, and the rest of the Amphibs is safe, it is not bad, overall, since the scenarios we have been looking at were massively worse.
I’m still not really sure, however, because of the “cutting Devonport” idea. If the amphibs are safe… Will they all go to Portsmouth? Is there adequate space and infrastructure for them all? I think there must be, since the base hosted a so far larger Royal Navy in the good ol’ times, but i must admit i’m not updated on this factor.
However, my personal observation (take it as my instinct, i’m no economist) is that closing the base will have a MASSIVE impact on economy in the area. The navy may do without Devonport, but Devonport will have a hard day from the navy moving out.
I wish to the Uk every fortune, but i’ll let you know my personal idea: when the cuts are delivered in full (not just those on defence), the enormous number of new unemployed people created by them and the business hit by them will drag the whole of the economy in a depressed state, with probable new recession. I hope the cut to the deficit will truly mean that the economy recovers faster, because next year i see a UK economy weak to say the least. The blows to come will be ferocious and vicious.
Back to military matters exquisitely.
I had already expressed doubts on the plan for 22 more Chinooks, and i see i wasn’t wrong.
Puma upgrade was also very vulnerable, and i was pretty sure we would have seen a decision of this kind…
I hope the Merlins still get navalized in decent timing, though: it is important to ensure they are a full joint instrument that the armed forces can use in any scenario. Otherwise, the Commandos in 5 years will be left without a single helicopter truly capable to go on ships, and that would be a major loss. The Apache, when it was brought with folding blades and other “naval” features, was a true BARGAIN. One of the smartest decisions EVER in MOD procurement.
For the future helicopters, this kind of measure should become the norm, to ensure they can used in any scenario.
As for reduction in RAF strike planes: it will be interesting to see what route is taken here. One month ago, i would have no doubts in saying that the RAF would have tried desperately to get rid of the Harriers to save as many Tornado as possible.
Now, with the Harriers probably being seen as the only bridge for both the navy and the RAF to get 70 F35B (70 being the number that Fox’s plan called for), it is likely that the RAF will be more “navy-friendly” and let the Harriers be.
Also because there are so few of them left by now that, pretty much, any further cut would spell the effective end of the whole fleet.
“Early” is also deceptive: in the run-up so far we have had “early” assuming values going from “within five years” to “2020, five years earlier than planned”.
To achieve real savings, i’d say the the “early” we are looking at is the first one.
At least, “Half” is better than losing ALL the Tornado fleet.
As to the army, i don’t know what to say.
I’ll have you know, i’m so fond of british forces that i’m certainly happy to hear that no armoured brigade will be lost.
BUT on the other side, i was deeply disappointed and pissed off by how the army has been facing this review. In the end, the only real partisan between the service is the army.
The Royal Navy again takes a blow of incredible violence upon its nape of the neck, and the RAF does not laugh either… I think the army could and should have been cut some, to ensure that less damage was made to the whole structure, personally.
Arguably, the 20th Brigade could have been disbanded with heavy armour put in storage, without excessive consequences.
The significant loss of helicopter mobility (once again!!!) and of strike fighters (not much for present time, but for the future, with the great reduction in F35 numbers) are a blow that causes a damage far greater than any effect the 20th Brigade will EVER sort in combat.
It would have hurt a lot less to lose a brigade of Challenger II than losing 68 F35B and all those choppers.
Also because, i fear, we’ll soon enough hear the army cry again about shortage of helicopters.
Overall, though, i hope this report is true, because it depicts a less dramatic situation than we risked seeing.
This, of course, provided that there are not other cuts that the report does not indicate.
Main good news that seem to emerge from the report:
-Carriers safe
-Amphibs mostly safe (HMS Ocean not replaced in 2018, but there will be PoW at least…!)
-Nimrod safe
-C130J safe (i hope so, i think they will still be needed a lot!)
-Not all Tornados to go
-Army to mostly retain its shape
Reports last week said HMS Endurance was about to be replaced with either leasing or acquisition of a younger Norwegian icebreaker, with service to start next year. Hopefully, it is true and will soon be confirmed.
Main bad news/uncertainties:
-Commando Helicopter Force at serious risk
-expected helicopter mobility to drop sharply: 60 Chinooks and 28 Merlins alone
-Navy to lose even more escorts, with consequent material incapacity to cover all of the current commitments
-Dramatic drop in availability of Strike aircrafts. 70 planes may grant the creation of 3 active squadrons, but certainly no more. Just enough to fill up one carrier at a time.
–Procurement? Rivet Joint and the drones of project Scavenger are going to come, or procurement will be frozen over entirely as “non-evident” additional cut?
–TRIDENT. Major nuts. Problem postponed to 2015, but pretty likely deemed to weight on the MOD budget in the future. Possible source of new, draconian cuts from 2015 onwards
In gulf war 2 too, if that’s just it.
But careful. It is not USAAF anymore. With the second world war the United States Army Air Force became an indipendent branch of the armed forces, just like the RAF. So it is USAF.
In 1991 the Type 42 HMS Gloucester shined too, during Iraq war:
In February 1991 during the Gulf War the battleship USS Missouri, escorted by HMS Gloucester (carrying Sea Dart) and the USS Jarrett (equipped with Phalanx CIWS), was engaged by an Iraqi Silkworm missile (also known as a Seersucker). The Silkworm missile was intercepted and destroyed by a Sea Dart fired from Gloucester. During the same engagement, the Jarrett’s Phalanx 20 mm CIWS was placed in autoengagement mode and targeted chaff launched by the Missouri rather than the incoming missile. This engagement was the first validated, successful engagement of a missile by a missile during combat at sea, though the engagement was tail-end after the Silkworm had flown past the Gloucester.
That’s become famous!
Of course. That’s also why the UK needs aircraft carriers. To be able to bring the army ashore and support it also in the future.
Otherwise, the army will pretty much only be able to build sand castles on the beaches of England.
Also, while the Navy has the flexibility to fight also the Army’s wars, i challenge you to use the army to fight Navy’s wars.
Challenger tanks aren’t very good at floating.
What good can the RN do in Afghanistan? What did it add in Iraq, Bosnia, Croatia? In all those conflicts the Army was the major force. The RAF and RN are just support services for the army.
Misinformation of the worst kind.
Navy provided to Afghanistan:
-Deployment of Royal Marine Commandos Brigade for regular 6 month tours.
-The Marines were the first into Afghanistan, coming from HMS Ocean. They also introduced in theatre the Vicking vehicle, that became so popular that the army sent drivers from Royal Tank Regiment to the Marines for training on the Vicking.
When the first 6 month tour in Afghanistan ended for the Marines, they handed their Vickings to the army, and kept maintaining them and training army pilots. Ultimately, the army was so delighted with the Vickings that ordered the similar but larger Warthog.
-The royal navy supplies flights of Sea King ASaC for radar reconnaissance over Afghanistan
-Royal Navy divers have become specialists in anti-IED work
-Special Boat Service operatives have been operating on chase with the SAS
-Fleet Air Arm supplies the helicopters and crews of the Commando Helicopter Force
-800 and 801 Naval Air Squadrons supplied crews for the Harriers GR9 that were so precious in the battle zone
And so along. The Royal Marines paid in blood for their presence, too. I’ll remind you that even the 300th victim in Afghanistan was a Commando.
Royal Marines are NAVY.
Is that enough for you? What else should have they done? Put wheels under the keel of Type 22 frigates and used them on land…? Get your facts straight.
And go back to 2003 and get updated on Navy and Marines contribution to Iraq too. You’ll be surprised.
-Tomahawk launches from submarines
-transport of the army forces in the area with Point class ro-ro ships. Extraction of army at the withdrawal moment again with Navy ships.
-Royal Marines stormed the Iraqi Al-Fawl peninsula to capture oil rigs before they could be destroyed.
-Royal Marines were large part of the forces deployed in Iraq.
Idem for Bosnia:
-Sea Harrier patroled the sky under NATO command from the navy carriers
-HMS Sceptre was the first Uk unit firing in line launching Tomahawks
and so along
Sierra Leone saw HMS Ocean and other Navy ships in action, in support of Operation Barras too, with the hostages extracted being brought to RFA Sir Percivale.
RN supplied for the Sierra Leone crisis:
from wikipedia
In support of the effort a number of Royal Navy assets were diverted:
* HMS Illustrious with elements of 801 NAS, 899 NAS and No. 3 Squadron RAF embarked. HMS Illustrious and her task group, Task Group 342.1, had been on Exercise Linked Seas and the group was diverted.[1]
* RFA Fort George
* HMS Ocean
* HMS Argyll
* HMS Chatham
* RFA Fort Austin
* RFA Sir Bedivere
* RFA Sir TristramIllustrious and Fort George had been diverted from NATO exercises in the Bay of Biscay, with RAF aircraft embarked for the exercise. Aircraft of both No. IV Squadron and 801 Naval Air Squadron made a number of patrols in support of the mission.
In addition, RN provides Nuclear Deterrence 365 days a year, Fishery Protection, with over 1100 ships searched every year, continuous surveillance of the Gulf to keep the oil for you car reaching the UK, anti-drug patrols in the caribean, protection of the Falklands, mapping for the sea bed and of the sea lanes so merchant ships don’t ran aground on uncharted obstacles, provides SAR coverage service, carries out policy of presence around the world, shows the flag and keeps relationship with allies all around the world, last year sending surface warships as far as Japan.
So, PLEASE, reason and get informed before you say idiocies.
I don’t think it will be roses for the navy anyway. Even with the carriers secured, the army may lose less than the navy all the same, considering that:
-Nimrods MR4 likely will be scrapped. It is more trouble for the navy than for the RAF, seen the work the Nimrod does. And it is a great loss for Britain. My hopes to see Nimrods in service are getting lower and lower, despite how much they are needed.
-If things are done with a little bit of smartness, the minesweepers will go down to a single 8-hull class, probably the Hunt. Small as they are, minesweepers cost a LOT. And the force seems currently hardly justifiable in such numbers. With the C3 requirement for the future, after all, we are looking forwards to a BEST CASE fleet of 8 ships, and they will have many more roles to cover over the mine countermeasure one.
-Richard Beedall suggested seeing the Type 42 going all within 2013. I totally agree with this, especially if it can help save amphibious ships.
-Type 22 may be at risk
-A couple of Trafalgar may be out of service early
-Devonport may still be closed and the amphibs lost
-Marines will probably go to the army (dreadful decision)
-an article this morning said that Fox’s plan sees Prince of Wales built, but put in reserve. Hopefully, by the time she’s built and fitted out, this flaw may be solved, but this is what is expected to happen.
-RFA future? Big question mark. Beedall’s forecast in this sector is dramatical, and i hope we won’t see things going that way… But if the amphibs go, for sure goes also the smart idea of the Joint Sea Based Logistics ship: no amphibious assault capability, means the navy won’t fight at all for gain budget for one of the smartest ideas in the story of the service, to see these ships resupply the army.
If Marines survive with their ships, the navy will try to secure (in time, obviously…) the fate of these proposed floating logistic bases that would certainly prove invaluable in any situation from disaster relief to major military ops.
Obviously, the most urgent needs are for new double hulled tankers. (probably 4 instead of 6, but if we listen to Beedall the navy may be asked to do with the Wave Ruler and Wave Knight alone…) and a dedicate ship to support and resupply CVF operation.
So, potentially, the navy still is losing far too much considering its importance for the nation.
The army should be challenged to prove its points: why does it needs the Commandos of the navy to ensure 10.000 men can stay in Afghanistan…?
The availability of army units for oversea deployment is very, very low compared to the availability of Marines.
I still hope the Marines and Amphibs are saved, and Nimrods too. I believe they are too important to be lost out.
The army’s top brass is the worst threat to UK security at the moment, is the comment i can give to this news from my observation point outside the UK.
If they win, UK will be an island with an irrilevant army stuck on a rock in the middle of the sea.
An army that will be able merely to contribute to “America’s Wars” as many like to call them. Exactly the opposite of what everyone is hoping for the future of the forces. And to contribute only to medium scale ops, i will add, since numbers will still be too small for anything else, and there will be too few heavy armor for high end warfighting.
The proposal to buy F35A is total nonsense if not all-out madness, of all things. Who was crazy enough to put it forwards? Ol’ Richard Dannatt?
“One carrier only, for training purpose and in extended readiness only” It is the greatest piece of bull**** i ever found in my life.
And people contests admirals and their love for aircraft carriers…? At least they live in the real world!
I’m astonished by this madness.
20 billion barrels are already one hell of a lot. Not a new Saudi Arabia, but it would be a MASSIVE find.
If the oil reserve was to be closer to the 60 billions barrels, then the UK discovered a new Saudi Arabia.
And even if the amounts were to be smaller, it would still be a very considerable and much needed find.
North Sea oil won’t last forever. Having other reserves in the Falklands is pure gold.
Hopefully the economy will have recovered, but that does not mean it will translate into any more F35 orders does it? I don’t get the impression that Green Dave cares that much about defence, beyond getting Britain out of Afghanistan by 2015. Capabilities lost will not be restored.
This is unfortunately most likely very, very, very true.
The MOD will try to restore some of what it loses, but it will have to do so within a budget that will stay limited and insufficient, if not even smaller.
So it won’t have that much space of maneuver… And its enemies will be able to say: “You did without that for years, you can continue to do without that.”
And the worst is that it is not really a “Dave” or “Nick” or anyone else problem, but a general trend that continues from years and that undoubtedly will continue in the future too.
That’s why it is double important to save as much as possible in this SDSR. What’s lost, most likely is lost definitively.
Not the same, of course, for the only one special budget, International Aid. And not so for all the other budgets either. But for defence…? No one cares, it seems.
It fits inside the F35B: the whole point of this research was that with the original wings, the missile could have fit only on the Air-to-Ground station in the weapon bay, but not on the designed Air-to-Air pylon of the F35B because of the smaller weapon bay. Other F35 versions, the A and C both, i believe had no problems at all.
Now, with the wings reduced, the Meteor can be fitted on all four the pylons in the weapon bays (six with the Lockeed Martin proposed configuration), or just in place of AMRAAM/ASRAAM in the designed AA places, so that the two AG stations can carry a couple of Paveway IV. I expect the ASRAAM+Paveway IV combination to be the first standard load for the UK F35, with Meteor being available later on when the RN/RAF find the money to integrate the missile.
Anyway, from the very start it was mostly only a problem of wings and air intake for the ramjet: other than these factors, the Meteor has been designed to adapt to the AMRAAM designed pylons, inclused the fuselage attach points of the Typhoon. So it is roughly the same size.