Liger30The APS-784 has been has a quoted range 150-200km for missile detection(and probably far more for aircraft). I don’t see why it wouldn’t qualify. And if the Lockheed Martin proposal is willing to incorporate the Cereberus I don’t see why the HEW team wouldn’t.
HEW team never even tried to offer its solution, and it probably won’t do it.
The APS-784 has been produced again after the ones made for the italian order? Probably not.
The RN is historically a Searchwater radar user, and it makes sense since a similar variant of the Searchwater is also the radar of the Nimrod MR4.
Other than this, i can just say: go and tell your idea to the Royal Navy or to the radar makers so they make their proposal, because for now, an APS-784 solution for the RN simply isn’t considered, nor even offered.
Liger30Funnily enough I’m looking for the quote and having trouble finding it…did I imagine it? I am sure when the Helicopter review was announced that was what was said…..maybe i’m wrong?
A precise statement, for what i know, was never made, and the possibility of having a bunch of new Merlins bought for the ASaC role was never ruled out officially. Of course, it is likely to never happen a buy of 8/10 new airframes, but no one ruled it out at least.
As to the platform, in the article i provided the link to, it is merely said that the Thales proposal based on the pallet-radar suite can be easily integrated on all Utility configurations of the AW101, nothing more.
While in other articles over the internet it was suggested that the Merlin HM1 not updated would be used.
New bought airframes would be the best choice, but if not, i hope the HM1 are used. With as many as 28 Utility Merlin for the navy, having 8 in AEW role would leave just 20 airframes or less for training and transport duty.
The Commando helicopter force would almost die. 12 Merlins and 6 Apaches/Lynx are the load of HMS Ocean, and it would take the whole fleet to deploy a miserable 12 choppers. It is pretty ridiculous, sincerely, compensated only in part by the (hoped for) increase in the availability of Chinook frames.
The RN choppers fleet shouldn’t be allowed to drop under 30 upgraded (HM2) Merlins, 28 Merlin HC3 (will they become HC4 when they are marinized and “commandoed”?) 8/10 Merlin AEW and the 28 Lynx Wildcat on order, which are not that many to start with.
If 8 of the HC3 have to go from the start to be used as AEW platforms, i’m at least hoping that the 8 (possibly 12, the Merlins were 42, i’m missing 4 airframes which are never mentioned) HM1 that aren’t upgraded can be used for training purpose to allow the 20 remaining utility frames to work full time.
70 Chinooks… i keep thinking that, from buying none to buying this much, there was a bit of an excessive jump, if the Chinooks arrive at the cost of all the rest. A bit too costly, you know.
Liger30All the talk is of the HC3 airframes being used, I think the spare HM1 airframes are going to be just that, spares. At an outside they may be given over to Utility role or used for aircrew training.
Where did you read about planning to use HC3 airframes, may i ask?
Liger30To be honest the ramped ASaC kit might actually be a good value for money sytem. At anyone time we will need perhaps up to five-six airframes, based on 3-4 on the active QE and 2-3 for training. The other airframes can then be used in the utility role, switched over if we need more ASaC etc. The pallet based kit not fitted can still be used for ground instruction and training.
Also means you could send out ASaC capability in the back of a C17 (or Grizzly/Herc???) For instance we have HC3 already in Afghan, we judge we need ASaC so very quickly the pallet is wheeled into a C17. flown where it s needed and fitted to the back of a HC3. Think HMS Ocean on the otherside of the world, crisis arises, we can have improved survalliance kit flown out to it….actually this could be a genius piece of kit and great value.
Very true, but i think that, if it can be managed, the HC3 will be used in tactical transport role. There are just 26 airframes, so the Commando Helicopter Force will need them all badly.
The plan was to convert 8/10 of the Merlin HM1 airframes that won’t be upgraded with the CSP program, and i hope it can be done, because doing differently would be a major waste.
Liger30^ It’s capable enough that the Italian Navy is using it to replace their old Sea King AEWs. How exactly are the Thales and Lockheed systems superior?
It is in service from quite some time already, and i don’t think the italian navy ever had Sea King AEW choppers to start with.
As to capability, its radar and data elaboration performance are fine for the italian navy, but the RN considers it not sufficient for its own requirements and mandates a more powerful radar and, almost surely, would not step away from the proven Cerberus mission system.
Liger30What about the Italian HEW Merlin? It requires the least modification since the Eliradar APS-784 only needs an enlarged nose radome.
It is not what the RN wants. It is quite less capable, and was never really considered for the RN.
Liger30The one advantage the Lockheed proposal has is that it could use the 8 non-ramp-equipped HM1s that are not going to be upgraded to HM2, thus avoiding the cost of either new airframes or reducing availability of the current Merlin fleet.
The Thales proposal requires either using existing HC3s (and thus reducing the number of those available for their primary troop-carrying role), or buying new ramp-equipped Merlins to maintain fleet numbers.
The main question is, is there money available to maintain fleet numbers (for either the more expensive Lockheed electronics or the extra ramped Merlins), or will the budget force an addition of the ASaC role without providing more aircraft to carry out that new role.
I strongly suspect the latter, which will see Thales win, and the RN lose (by having to “dual-role” some HC3s)!
This is sadly very possible in a climate of “sacrificing capabilities we can see for things we can’t see”. I totally agree with mister Fox on the importance of cyberwarfare, but seriously. Seen the premises, it looks more like he’s kidding us all with those words.
The SDR is going to cut troops and equipment from already underfunded armed forces in order to allow for never-to-be-seen progresses in cyberwarfare, something people can’t see, unlike a ship or something.
Say it like it truly is: cuts come because they want to once more rob money from the armed forces, and it is easy to say that they are “adapting” and gearing for cyberwarfare. After all, no one could verify if it is true. And it is definitely not, with how ridiculously vulnerable MOD data systems already more than once proved to be.
There’s still a hope for using the non-upgraded Merlin HM1, however… when they are sent back to Agusta Westland to have the sonar dismantled, they could be very well fitted with a different rear with the ramp. After all, the Helicopter Strategy for the next ten years did not require Merlin HC3 to move to the navy after being navalized and equipped with folding tails and rotors?
It would be a shame to waste 8 good airframes.
This said… Original Merlins HM1 were 44, 42 should still being used. 30 upgraded with option for 8 more. In the worst case, the airframes “abandoned” should be 12, or am i missing something…?
Liger30Developments on MASC: Merlin based for sure, but there are two different proposals. Apparently, ten AEW platforms are planned/required.
Link to the article: http://defensenews.com/blogs/farnborough/2010/07/21/teams-vie-to-provide-c2-helos-for-uk-carrier/
Westland-Thales proposal seems the most likely to me, sincerely.
Also, the Sea Skua replacement seems to go ahead smoothly and it is apparently not menaced by budget cuts on either side of the channel. http://defensenews.com/blogs/farnborough/2010/07/20/anglo-french-naval-missile-passes-design-review/
Liger30Uh, not good news for the UK, the Hawk line is now in india IIRC.
And don’t bet on the Typhoons going just yet, Italy has announced their intention not to take the aircraft, now thw consortium must calculate the penalty for then not doing so and present them with the bill.
50% of the Hawks of the new order would still be imported from outside India, for what i understood.
And there will be no penalty: the penalty can’t come because the penalty does not really come from the consortium itself, but from the four nations that started the program. The Tranche 3A was (luckily) firmly wanted by Germany, Spain and to a degree Italy, which meant there was no space for the UK to escape their revenge if the unit cost of their Typhoons was to rise because of erased orders from Britain.
But this time, only Spain, as i said, may be truly wanting the last batch, so the penalties are very unlikely to happen.
The consortium merely made clear that Italy should do like the UK and actively pursue export orders to compensate for the refused planes.
In the same time, the consortium announced 9 months of independent funding for the development of the AESA radar, vital for competing for export in India and elsewhere, with the intention of seeing the four partner nations stepping in later.
Uk is already paving the way with a contract with Selex Galileo to develop and test an AESA radar on one Typhoon for later adoption.
Liger30As i forecasted: Italy confirmed that it won’t buy its 25 Typhoon Tranche 3B. The only one nation who may want them is Spain, which has not announced cuts to its military despite its dire economic situation.
However, i guess that at this point, there will be an agreement between the four nations to have no penals, and the UK will definitely renounce to its own 48 remaining planes. The first sure cut we’ll see in the SDR, i’d say.
Reference to Italy’s announcement here: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4716471&c=EUR&s=AIR
As a bit of a good news for Uk industry, India is soon to finalize the order for 57 more Hawk trainer jets. Let’s hope it is only another step on the way to see them buying Typhoons as well!
Liger30Apparently NG has been aggressivley pursuing a Global Hawk sale to the UK for its Scavenger requirement, perhaps whatever airframe (Global Hawk or preferrably one of the many British developed UAVs) is picked for that could also be used in the SIGINT role if the RC135 is cancelled.
It’d create more airframe commonality at least.
The Global Hawk has been proposed for SIGINT role, but at the moment it is not fitted with the necessary sensors, and it would be a bit daring to start down this road.
Besides, the SIGINT performance of a Global Hawk would undoubtedly be far away from the quality offered by the Rivet Joint platform.
Same goes for other drones, that very unlikely could do more than a fraction of what a Rivet Joint can do. And they would still need to be fitted with a miniaturized SIGINT suite, that would have to be designed, developed, and integrated. It may end up costing as much as picking up Rivent Joint.
Besides, it is all to see if Global Hawk will be picked up for Scavenger. Especially if an agreement with France is found to collaborate on Mantis, for once they’ll do the right thing and choose Mantis for that work, with Zephyr for the communication-relay role.
An all-british solution with massive capabilities and great export chances. Fox, after all, was very vocal in his support for Mantis, already before the elections.
Liger30There are two development MRA4s going spare, so only one airframe would need to be converted.
I reckon that slow delivery of A400M is more likely. I’ve heard that the C-130J fleet has used up airframe hours far quicker than expected, & by the time we have a decent number of A400M, high hours C-130Js will probably need a bit of rework to keep going. Might find themselves sold on cheap for someone else to do that.
I think Typhoon tranche 3B will never come, quite simply. Germany and the others are going to most likely cut their own Typhoon budgets, so there will be likely no opposition to just ending the program there. Even less opposition will come if Romania really leases 24 Typhoons and Oman and Arabia both buy the 24 fighters each that they plan.
The RAF historically is more attracted by Tornado than Harriers, but good sense certainly suggests retaining VTOL capability. I hope good sense will triumph for once, but i don’t trust politicians. Early retirement for Tornado is almost sure… but… within five years??? Damn, that’s a massive change from a planned 2025 date.
At the very least, to survive such a cut, the RAF would have to speed up massively the weapon integration process on the Typhoons, or many capabilities, mainly the Storm Shadow long reach, will be lost.
Invincible is already out. Within the end of this year her fate will be revealed. Scrapped, or perhaps, if someone has a bit of gratitude, turned in a museum.
Illustrious may indeed end up mothballed. Sad destiny, but rather probable. Ark Royal though would then have to act alternatively as Commando platform and Strike Carrier, otherwise retaining Harriers will have been completely useless a move.
And with a single ship doing two roles, we’d have not one but two losses of capability when she is unavailable for refit or something.
Nimrod MR4 turned into R1 replacement was BAe’s proposal. It has already been scrapped as too costy, and there will be no turning back.
But the Rivet Joint purchase seems to be safe, since ISTAR capability as a whole is considered a vital requirement, in Afghanistan and outside it.
The RAF currently has 25 C130 between J and K, for what i know. We are possibly looking at a fleet of 22 A400M (newly named Grizzly by EADS) and 7 C17 alone, with early C130 retirement.
Not so cruel in these terms, since A400M is more capable. But the much-needed increase in airlift capability would not come, with 3 planes less of all things.
Puma upgrade never really had me happy or impressed. I think it would have made more sense to buy a few more Merlin instead. Less airframes, but more capable, and with a fleet less to support and train about.
Buying them with folding rotor and tail would have also ensured that they could from the first moment take on roles on land and on HMS Ocean, with the aim of soon enough getting rid of Sea King HC4 as well.
Navalize all Merlins and move them to the navy in exchange for Sea King HC4, abandon Puma upgrade and put Puma out of service in exchange for a few more Merlins. This is the helicopter strategy that would have allowed the better results and the best long-term savings, with two types less of choppers to support, maintain and train for.
30 Merlin HM1 are going to get the CSP upgrade contracted for in 2006, 8 more could be fitted with Cerberus radar to replace Sea King ASaC and the remaining 4 either kept as source of spare parts or stripped of the sonar suite and used in a troop-transport configuration.
Liger30That doesn’t sound like any BBC defence reporting I’ve read. It tends to be greatly inferior to the specialist defence press, but orders of magnitude better than, e.g., the Daily Wail.
The true problem for me is to see how many F35 are ordered and bought. I read even just this morning that cuts of up to two thirds out of the 138 planes planned have been suggested… and that would be, like, a disaster. 46 planes, or 50 as someone else suggested, are far, far insufficient to even be sure to fill up just one of the carriers in time of need.
With 50 planes, deploy 36 on a carrier would be almost an impossible challenge.
And such a small order would leave immense doors open wide for the morons who keep suggesting doing without Prince of Wales.
That’s what worries me the most.
That, and the news that the treasury seems to be winning its battle against Fox to have Trident financed from the core defence budget.
That would mean losing, all of a sudden, more than a quarter of an already insufficient and shrinking year budget, and it would put the MOD in a more than desperate situation.
Meanwhile, shocking news keep coming out: the A400 order may be cancelled (unlikely for political matters), and if it is not, we are going to see the C130J sent out of service early after the old C130K, to have just C17 and A400.
Regardless of the clear need for more stategical airlift capability that Afghanistan higlighted so much.
It has been said the RAF offered to refuse the Nimrods, even, now that they are ready for going into service! Demented move, and a capability of sea control lost in one go.
And it has been said that either the Tornado Gr4 or the Harriers may be gone within five years.
If it was the Harrier, the Illustrious and Ark would follow Invincible on the scrap earlier than planned, obviously.
All in all, we are looking at an even gloomier SDR than i feared. It is going to change the armed forces massively indeed, this time… and there is no turning back later. It may be shocking when the review comes out.
Liger30I don’t think the BBC is that ‘evil’, my cousin works for them and i’ve not seen her sitting in the corner plotting the downfall of the military (or the right).
The RN will ensure that some great publicity shots of a full looking QE is put out early on and it will be only the likes of me and thee that will spot that the deck has 3 F35s 5 Merlins and 6 chinooks, the public will go “wow thats cool look at all the neat planes” for about 30 seconds then forget all about it, the public and to be honest the average reporter have no idea what a “full CVF” is supposed to look like and for the most part they really don’t care. Most people in the street aren’t even aware we have aircraft carriers now, let alone are building new ones. Ask them what Astute or Daring are and they will stare blankly and as for QEs… “aircraft carrier? I remember that old Ark Royal on that series when I was little…”
This is so sad. I’m italian, i’m from Italy, and yet i grew in the myth and the glory of the royal navy. I feel so excited just when it comes to learning where HMS Ocean last went, or to know that one of the Vanguards is out in the deep of the sea, i love to see the QEs taking shape and the public in there cares so little for the most glorious of navies in the world… It truly is sad. Unfurtunately, i also know well that you are right.
And after all, it is not like things are that different in here. How many italians do know and care about the italian navy…? Actually probably even less (far less) than the britons that still feel the emotion coming out of the white ensign.
It is not fair, though. The navy spirit shouldn’t be allowed to die away this way. Especially in Englad. England without Royal Navy is no england, come on!
But i look forwards to seeing true photos of the plane-crowded decks of Queen Elizabeth and not just the drawings we get now… And i’ll be there when She gets launched, i promise.
Liger30[QUOTE=90inFIRST;1612804]
Sorry my **** up find the whole lot here
http://content.yudu.com/A1ob8a/navynewsjul10/resources/index.htm?referrerUrl
Nothing to be sorry about. Thank you for the awesome stuff instead!
Sign In
