Liger30Partying in the hangar of QE:
http://www.navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/951
Weather permitting, September 12 will be the day Center Block 03 sails towards Rosyth from A&P Tyne.
Liger30I have several reasons to doubt of the “converting QE at build” thing, mainly:
The UK could afford delaying QE and converting her only if her delays didn’t interfere with PoW, otherwise you are effectively delaying twice the amount of work and paying more workers, for longer, and spending an absurd amount of money. I don’t know if this is possible.
The UK needs solid EMALS info and data, and a definitive choice of which catapult to use before conversion planning can really start.
The UK needs a LPH to enter in service in 2016 if Ocean is to retire by then as has been said.
EMALS likely won’t be available for a few years. I doubt a UK set could be delivered earlier than 2015, and 2015 might be too late.
Money in the short term is a problem. At least the next two planning rounds for the MOD will be challenges, and spending money now, in such amounts, is not, in my opinion, likely.
Even since 2004/5, when FOAS was cancelled, the RAF started asking for F35C, and the F35B continued to experience serious trouble, there’s been “plans” involving QE initially completed as STOVL/LPH and PoW converted with cats, with QE converted later on. If already in 2004, well before built actually started, it was considered too late to cost-effectively convert QE, i guess that now it is kind of unthinkable to do it.
Last, for what i understand 2020 is not ISD for the carrier intended as ship: 2020 is the year in which the UK will have ONE ready Strike Carrier AND F35 initial operational capability, which in 2010 in the NAO Major Projects report was described as “6 embarked JCAs at Readiness Level 2 (2 to 5 days warning for embarkation)”, coherent with the “6 F35 on the carrier in 2020” plan that has been reported lately.
QE is still expected to be delivered to the RN by 2016. Unless this changes, i don’t see it possible to convert her.
Interestingly, the JCA Full Operational Capability in the 2010 report was “36 Force Elements at readiness” (AKA 36 embarkable airplanes).
The September equipment report and, probably late this winter, the next NAO Major Projects report will supply evidence of what is (eventually) changed.
But they are still saying that the carrier will have the ability to embark up to 36 planes as once planned, so, unless they can do miracles, planes will still be needed for that.
Liger30Hi Liger have u got a source for the lb03 entering the dock on the 29th, it’s the first I’ve heard of it so well done for finding it.
http://www.spectal.com/Newsroom/NewsReleases/autoGen_1117161053.html
You can read it here.
Liger30I don’t know if there are depths problems, but for now i’m not worried: LB03 was always scheduled to enter the dock only on Monday 29, so we are still four days away from the planned day of the operation.
Meanwhile A&P Tyne completed its four hangar blocks five weeks ahead of schedule. http://bdaily.info/news/construction/25-08-2011/aampp-tyne-completes-naval-order-ahead-of-schedule/
Liger30“That decision hasn’t be made yet Liger30”
Formally, no. Then again, even the EMALS decision is not official and is to be announced only in 2012, yet it is effectively the plan, unless something unexpected and real nasty happens.
As to the link http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/De…sOnTheMove.htm the bit that Brigstow74 quoted:
“The 919ft (280m) carrier, along with its sister vessel HMS Prince of Wales, will be converted to accommodate Joint Strike Fighter jets.”
has vanished, replaced by:
“The new carriers are being built by an alliance of BAE Systems, Babcock, Thales UK and the Ministry of Defence, and will give the Royal Navy a four-acre (16,200 square metres) military operating base which can be deployed worldwide.”
We’ll see if i’m proven wrong. It is possible. But i continue to firmly believe that it is PoW that gets the cats at build.
Liger30QE will be a LPH at entry in service, and PoW is the one getting the catapults, as i’ve been saying all along:
The good news is that there is growing pressure and desire to lately fit cats to QE as well. But in 2016, QE will essentially enter in service to prepare deck crew, do ship trials (which will be precious to inform work on PoW) and to replace HMS Ocean in the LPH role.
She might not be mothballed despite earlier announcements (probable, unless the requisite for a LPH is cancelled by the next review) and she might even be fitted with Cats and Traps at her first refit. (not so sure yet, but probabilities are growing with time)
Liger30Real great images, thank you!
Liger30Kilo, I never claimed that having Flyco aft was better
But i do. The real critical part of ops is the landing, not the take-off. The better visual Flyco gets of the ops, the better. Have you seen how far back aft is the island on the Fords?
And ship control ahead, near the bow, totally make sense as well, as it gives direct view of where and how the ship is going during maneuvers in port.
Cameras and displays are good… but ask the americans that want an expanded bridge on LCS2 to better see where they go during maneuvers in port if a well placed bridge is not important!
But of course, the main advantage is that due to its conventional propulsion, a CVF would have wasted more deck space with a single island, which would have had to be longer and bigger, than with two separated ones.
Liger30As of now, TLAM is an option for the Type 26 design, and at least until the end of this year, we won’t know if it progresses or if it is dropped. For a long time, it was touted for Type 45 as well.
By the way, NATO has been asking Britain if the 6 Type 45 destroyers could be used in the next years as part of the Anti Ballistic Shield, and General Dynamics is already doing studies for such a role, which means MK41 Strike Length to carry the SM3, and along with it, capability to employ TLAM eventually.
Also, yeah. Current TLAM stock level is 65 nominal missiles. Now there are undoubtedly less than that, but the expended rounds are supposed to be replaced with Treasury funding at the end of Libya ops.
And arguably, having more would be far smarter and useful than having still over 800 Storm Shadows, an absurd number…
Liger30Would it not be better to fit SCALP, rather than Tomahawk?
HOLY HELL NO.
Shorter range, much higher cost, little-to-none real commonality with the Storm Shadow used by the RAF, and a whole new missile added to the list when the RN is already using the TLAM to great success.
Really, no. It would be the worst decision ever.
Liger30@imperialman
Well, overall it is understandable, the carrier situation is probably not yet totally clear, even to them in the first place… and about the Type 45 i guess they try to keep stuff secret.
However yes, the VLS must be quite big for real: there’s space reservation for another 16 cells… and it is deep enough that the current 5-meters cells can be swapped with 7-meters ones (Tomahawk capable). Big sizes indeed!
Thank you for letting us know, i bet it was a good visit
Liger30I’m going to an open day at the BAE yard in Scotstoun tomorrow (family and friends of workers), the event programme says there will be an “Aircraft Carrier Exhibition” so I’ll try and get as much information and images as possible. There’s also a tour of HMS Defender or Dragon I think, should be good.
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Gods, i wish i could be to that tour myself! Enjoy it, and bring back info and pics!
Liger30Yeah, i head it. The super-barge for transport should be on its way already. It will be a lot more impressive than when they moved the bow, it will be like putting a Type 45 on a barge and sailing it up the Clyde…!:D
Things will start looking real huge now!
Liger30Rafale is going to get Meteor, with France having ordered 200 missiles already.
Since the RAF is of course going to move from AMRAAM to Meteor from 2015, that problem is not existent.
There would be other integration costs, instead: RAPTOR, ASRAAM, Paveway IV, Brimstone. But then again, this is even more valid for F35C. Only ASRAAM and Paveway IV are currently financed for F35 integration, and the Meteor integration, according to rumors, might be self-funded by MBDA since the industry is aiming at export orders, where they have good success potential.
Would be interesting to see EJ200 engines put into the Rafale… but i’m far from sure it would be possible.
If it was, we might have already seen the unthinkable: UAE buying Rafale but with EJ200 engines, as they notoriously consider the Rafale slow and underpowered, and their acquisition has been stalled by their firm requisite for more power.
Probably a consideration made relevant also by Hot-weather considerations, due to geographic nature of UAE.
In the hot, power is kind of never enough.
Liger30@Geoff B. Those are some frigging awesome models, congrats!
“Still dont see how we only get six by 2019, does that mean six total plus the two ‘B’ Type Development jets and the one test ‘C’? or did Admiral Hussain mean six in RN/FAA hands and thus embarked, with the remainder with the RAF? Be interested to know if the 60/40 % split is RAF/FAA is still the brokered deal – if so that would imply a total of 18 in 2019, 12 RAF and 6 FAA?”
This is indeed confusing, but i think to understand that F35 IOC will be hit with 18 planes being active in 2020. Considering training needs and everything, 6 (a third of the active planes) is a realistic assessment of those that could be regularly embarked. Numbers will be worked up from there.
“Anyone know where this data comes from – is it still current given the delays?”
It is as current as i can make it, building on the latest LM released F35 Production Plan, dated late 2009: a revised schedule has not yet been released. I’m unable to make better estimates until a new plan is announced… and the post-SDSR target for F35 by 2020 was put at around 40, so until different indication comes out…
As i have said in earlier posts:
In december 2010, post SDSR, Bagwell, RAF’s Group 1 commander, said that there will be around 40 F35C and a single squadron operative come 2020, and that the maximum number of planes acquired will be “around 100”.
The MOD’s Business Plan 2010 and 2011, however, report the end-date of the acquisition effort for the F35 in 2023. At the time of the 150/138 JSF order, the UK acquisition was to stretch as far as 2027.
The last Lockheed Martin-released F35 Production Slots schedule, released in late 2009 and shown in the 2010 JSF report, provides an idea of what the UK could buy within the 2023 date.
The first 2 UK Test F35Bs have been ordered in 2009: LM specifies that between order and delivery, a couple of years pass. These first two planes might arrive late this year or early next one, i don’t yet know what the exact expected delivery date is. The MOD tried to change these to F35Cs after the switch, but LM said it was impossible at the stage reached.
The third and for now last was ordered in 2010, and this one is being negotiated as we speak: LM is opposing resistance, but the MOD wants at least this one, being in early stage, to be swapped for an F35C.The first orders of production planes for the UK are expected in 2013: the UK has 7 production slots reserved for itself as of November 2009.
0 in 2014.
9 in 2015.
11 in 2016.
3 in 2017.
6 in 2018.Considering the two years time before delivery, these are the planes that will eventually be around in 2020. The total is 36 (+ 3 test), roughly compatible with the “40” figure. The slots aren’t totally definitive, especially as the other countries will probably change the schedules of their own orders: Israel wants early slots, the US will likely take a bit less slots than once planned, and other countries will also delay/reduce. Indicatively, however, this is what (as of now) we should be expecting.
14 in 2019
10 in 2020
2 in 2021Here comes the problem: 2023 must be intended as “last delivery” or last order placed…? It is not clear. If it is last delivery, orders would conclude in 2021, and with the current slots allocation would give 62 F35C, absolutely insufficient for 4 Squadrons.
If 2023 is the last order placed,4 in 2022
14 in 2023We reach the 80 planes figure, which is the number of planes deemed necessary to replace the Joint Force Harrier and form 4 squadrons (even if someone expressed worry that the 4 squadrons, with just 80 planes to draw from, would not be able to line more than 9 planes each, instead of 12. I hope/believe it is not the case).
I will be the happiest man in the universe if the UK slots are augmented and the 100 figure is reached… but i’m not overly confident on it, to say the least. Then again, with 80 in 4 Squadrons i’d be happy.
800° and 801° NAS, 617° and IV RAF, and i’m all too happy with it, it would already be a good force, and it would be possible, at a stretch, to fill the carrier up when necessary.The production slots table is part of the 2010 JSF MOU: http://www.jsf.mil/downloads/documen…ate_4_2010.PDF scroll down to page 88.
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