TonyThe Gripen is of course cheaper than an F-35 – and cheaper than the Rafale and Typhoon. But Gripen is not as capable as these 3 aircraft. What else is new?
I agree Gripen is not as capable as Rafale or Typhoon.
The real question is do the smaller European air forces looking to replace their fast jets really need a “Day-One” strike aircraft to knock down the door to a high calibre AD system with e.g. S-400 or S-500? Or is a lower capability sufficient to carry out e.g. policing of their air space?
If they get the F-35 it will be as expensive to operate as a F-15E.
Finally, the low observable part so trumpeted will unfortunately be eroded in time by counter measures and improvements in e.g. IRST can spot its 40,000+lbs. of thrust…..if used in strike missions, it’s only face on in ingress, but when it is inside contested territory is not all aspect LO and when it scoots out after dropping a couple of 2000 pounders at maximum speed (perhaps with after-burner) you can spot its F135 exhaust.
There are also improvements in other counter measures against LO such as low frequency radar (hard to target) and triangulation techniques using multi-static radar….these are all much cheaper and will be produced faster than the effort it took to produce a one and half trillion dollar program.
I presume the Rafale and typhoon are also almost as expensive as the F-15E – but then again they are almost as capable, especially when they are equipped with AESA. Did you know that the F-15E is a successful CAS aircraft?
The F-15E is indeed an excellent CAS aircraft and much better in this respect than the F-35 ever could be. If you look at the different loadouts in
OIF http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/weapons/loadout-configurations/124-iraqi-freedom
the F-15E will deliver much more than the F-35 ever could and stay on station longer…..a case for more F-15Es? ;- )
TonyYes they do have alternative choices – except perhaps the British and Italian navies? ?
Yes, I agree the British and Italian navies are pretty much signed up…..I was thinking of the smaller countries looking to replace their F-16s like the Danes, the Dutch….Some countries do it for political reasons and because they can afford it….. for example, Norway I believe is committed to the F-35.
Some of the others will definitely look at the Gripen E for its cheaper operating costs at a time of reduced military budgets and because you can buy more of them for the same money than the F-35
(please Maurobaggio don’t produce your same table again every post with the Swiss (from years ago) and Brazilian deals divided by number of planes ;- ) . You don’t know what is included in the deal, for example setting up production line, spares, support and training (450 Brazilian engineers and families living in Sweden), etc. If you know the details and what are the individual components of each deal then please compare like with like!).
It wouldn’t be anymore expensive than most of the aircraft doing CAS right now. Do you think the French find the Rafale too expensive to be carrying out CAS – after all, it will soon be the only combat aircraft they’ve got. Why should CAS sorties be any cheaper than the other types of combat missions?
Because the operating hourly cost of the F-35 is projected (projected because not enough real life data available and won’t be for years) to be comparable to be just under cost of the twin-engine F-15…..look at the detailed breakdown (Spudman (a gentleman like Bring-it-On even if batting for the dark side!) posted it in F-35 thread), it has a lot of estimated and projected costs, with the chief unknown being software development and maintenance…..we know all software problems of the F-35 will be eventually solved, such as only one F-35 out of six being able to take off in a recent test due to software problems.
The Rafale is expensive to operate as CAS but it’s there because France took the strategic decision to maintain an indigenous capability to produce modern warplanes rather than join in with the Typhoon. They were willing to pay the price of small production (compared for example to the F-16 a successful plane in terms of capability for the price and large numbers produced). This helps it maintain an independence that would not be possible without this indigenous capability. It is the same independence streak that led France to withdraw militarily from NATO from 1966 to 2009 (43 years!). De Gaulle required NATO forces to leave French soil (to re-assert its independence) and SHAPE had to move to Belgium….it was typical of De Gaulle to give a medal to the NATO commander when they were leaving! ; -)
The French will have a fleet of 300+ but who knows, India may become the largest operator over time if a local line is established as for the Jaguar?
TonyI think that’s a bit unfair – and uncalled for.
All of this applies to every other combat aircraft programme in every other country – what are the estimated operating costs of Gripen E, Su-35 etc?
First of all Vnomad can look after himself…..I have been reading his increasingly bizarre posts….always pushing the LM line and rubbishing everything else.
Pushing it for example for India when it clearly is far fetched that India would puts its prime strategic warplane (other than the Su-30) into the vagaries and mercy of a nation with which it has yet to develop a close strategic alliance (forget sending the USS Enterprise and Seventh fleet to India at an inopportune time and a signal of displeasure or for that matter Nixon’s and Kissinger’s visceral dislike of Indira Gandhi).
To give lists of countries buying the F-35 is disingenuous because the mostly NATO and close US allies have no other choice! It’s the only show in town and if they have given development funds what else can they do? It’s useful though if you are an expeditionary air force like the US and need coalition members to chip in with a few squadrons to help “day-one” knocking down advanced AD systems.
Many people contend that it is too expensive for what it is delivering…..do you really want to do CAS with a expensive F-35 using up valuable frame- life on missions better done by aircraft that can loiter and perform the same mission cheaper?
I agree much of what applies to the F-35 equally applies to other programs…..the difference is they are not one and half trillion (yes trillion) dollar programs!
TonyUnfreaking believeable!
Vnomad, you are a freaking Lockheed Martin bot, along with a whole lot of others (I hope some of them eventually get proper jobs!)….we know who you lot are!
Nothing wrong with taking LM’s schilling but please don’t think people don’t know who the bots are! Just be honest!
A lot of us read, but we don’t always post because no time at work but lately you are getting beyond yourself!
You’ve posted a whole lot of drivel for ages but no one has the time to refute the crap line by line!
You twist your posts to show how great the F-35 is… give it a rest you are so obvious! All the problems and niggles of the F-35 will be worked out in due time (they will with the amount of money thrown at it). And the F-35 will do certain jobs but it ain’t great and iterations of counters to it are much cheaper and it’s certainly not worth the money that has been spent….sadly the money’s being spent and the US can’t do a thing about it (LM don’t worry McCain has to blow hot air from time to time to show he’s chairman of the Senate committee….won’t change a thing…pork barrel spending will continue because politicians just want to get re-elected).
Don’t talk about 20 year projections because in the real world they don’t mean **** other than in general trends. For example, a big component of the projected operating costs of the F-35 are on-going software development and maintenance….anyone that can be certain of future software costs has never worked on a real project…..that is aside from the fact that there aren’t enough F-35s flying over many years with a fleet that can give actual operating costs to work out meaningful hourly rates…..buying it is one thing and operating it is another (something to consider for smaller countries not spending $600 billion a year with a 500 tanker fleet as part of its operating doctrine).
For example, you posted best characteristics for CAS aircraft (look up your posting history)….would suit cheap planes like Scorpion etc., long loiter time, cheap operating costs etc. etc. but at the same time can’t admit using a $100m F-35 with expensive operating costs, short legs etc. is overkill.
Replacing so many types F-16, F-15, A-10 etc. means compromises and the costs are not justified.
A huge engine like the F135 on the F35 cannot be hidden no matter what new strategies are adopted to mitigate heat signature of the exhaust just based on simple physics. The F-35 is not all aspect low observable….the plane has to ingress, drop its bombs, then has to get the hell of there with an engine of forty-odd thousands pounds of thrust that is pretty hard to hide with ever improving strategies to counter.
Another example: you keep peddling the F-35 to India (including on other forums)….wake me up when America has a strategic relationship like India has with Russia, and starts delivering Virginia class nuclear attack submarines to India! Russia supplied the technology for miniaturised nuclear sub reactors, supplied nuclear attack Akula II subs, plus other goodies like Brahmos (forget the notional 290km MCTR limit!). That’s not to say the US won’t have a strategic alliance in the future (if only to counter China); or F-35B won’t be bought (only because no other VTOL replacement for the harrier).
With the Rafale, India gets to maintain its freedom of movement with no strings, including nuclear strike (giving a wide array of nuclear responses, not just inflexible nuclear ballistic missiles), with the added bonus of Rafale M available if required to supplement air wings on the new carriers. The Rafale is more than good enough to deal with most local threats for the foreseeable future. Later on, PAK-FA and indigenous 5th and 6th generations will only enhance India’s potent defence force.
Eventually, India will do well with latter versions of the LCA….increasing production to 16 a year is the first step…..the original was a meter too short….the requirement to fit HAS and other infra based on the small Mig-21 footprint made it hard to pack in a lot and limiting development potential….the recent partnership with SAAB will help develop the LCA to its full potential speedily without having to re-invent the wheel….mark 2 and 3 will be really potent.
The involvement of the private sector will help future development….state owned HAL was starved of funds and that won’t be a problem for billionaires like the Ambanis and Tatas who want to make even more money! (nothing wrong with a company wanting to maximise profit…..that’s their reason to exist…just ask Lockmart!).
Anyway, no offense Vnomad, the good news is there are plenty of seasoned and knowledgeable posters like Scorpion82 and MSphere that are easily able to refute your Lockheed Martin PR puffs! meanwhile, back to work for me!
PS I’ll go easy on my exclamation marks if you go easy on your italics! Thanks ;- )
TonyOne of these nights….co-written by Glenn Frey and Don Henley….bought the single and my favourite Eagles song….it was Glen Frey’s favourite.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTgk1qEJn_4
Glenn Frey said the song is about putting things off.
“We’ve all said, ‘One of these nights I’m gonna do something — get that girl, make that money, find that house.’ We all have our dreams – a vision we hope will come true someday. When that ‘someday’ will come is up to each of us.”
Added later:
Another great song from the same album…..Lyin’ eyes……sung by Glenn Frey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeNBspJGVko
And of course: ‘Some dance to remember, some dance to forget’…….’they stab it with their steely knives but they just can’t kill the beast!’
Life is short…
Dylan Thomas, 1914 – 1953
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light
TonyOne of these nights….co-written by Glenn Frey and Don Henley….bought the single and my favourite Eagles song….it was Glen Frey’s favourite.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTgk1qEJn_4
Glenn Frey said the song is about putting things off.
“We’ve all said, ‘One of these nights I’m gonna do something — get that girl, make that money, find that house.’ We all have our dreams – a vision we hope will come true someday. When that ‘someday’ will come is up to each of us.”
Added later:
Another great song from the same album…..Lyin’ eyes……sung by Glenn Frey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeNBspJGVko
And of course: ‘Some dance to remember, some dance to forget’…….’they stab it with their steely knives but they just can’t kill the beast!’
Life is short…
Dylan Thomas, 1914 – 1953
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light
TonyOne of these nights….co-written by Glenn Frey and Don Henley….bought the single and my favourite Eagles song….it was Glen Frey’s favourite.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTgk1qEJn_4
Glenn Frey said the song is about putting things off.
“We’ve all said, ‘One of these nights I’m gonna do something — get that girl, make that money, find that house.’ We all have our dreams – a vision we hope will come true someday. When that ‘someday’ will come is up to each of us.”
Added later:
Another great song from the same album…..Lyin’ eyes……sung by Glenn Frey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeNBspJGVko
And of course: ‘Some dance to remember, some dance to forget’…….’they stab it with their steely knives but they just can’t kill the beast!’
Life is short…
Dylan Thomas, 1914 – 1953
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
TonyOne of these nights….co-written by Glenn Frey and Don Henley….bought the single and my favourite Eagles song….it was Glen Frey’s favourite.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTgk1qEJn_4
Glenn Frey said the song is about putting things off.
“We’ve all said, ‘One of these nights I’m gonna do something — get that girl, make that money, find that house.’ We all have our dreams – a vision we hope will come true someday. When that ‘someday’ will come is up to each of us.”
Added later:
Another great song from the same album…..Lyin’ eyes……sung by Glenn Frey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeNBspJGVko
And of course: ‘Some dance to remember, some dance to forget’…….’they stab it with their steely knives but they just can’t kill the beast!’
Life is short…
Dylan Thomas, 1914 – 1953
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
TonySome stunning photos Brian…..the ones of the sunset taken from the Sky Garden are particularly good.
TonySome stunning photos Brian…..the ones of the sunset taken from the Sky Garden are particularly good.
TonyPlay this one loud Rebel Rebel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U16Xg_rQZkA ….hot tramp I love you so! ; -)
TonyPlay this one loud Rebel Rebel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U16Xg_rQZkA ….hot tramp I love you so! ; -)
TonySad loss….so many to chose from but Hunky Dory is a great album….
….starts with Changes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQTENuQYgjM ….then Oh you pretty things and just the first few notes of my favourite Life on Mars takes me back….
Added later:
I just realised part of the magic of the song is the lyrics….the start of Life on Mars hooks me in….”It’s a god-awful small affair to the girl with the mousy hair”
then the chorus
“Sailors fighting in the dance hall Oh man! Look at those cavemen go It’s the freakiest show Take a look at the Lawman Beating up the wrong guy
Oh man! Wonder if he’ll ever know He’s in the best selling show Is there life on Mars?”
The tune ain’t half bad either….perhaps with inspiration from the second movement of Rachmaninoff’s Piano Concerto No. 2?
The French song “Comme d’habitude” was re-written in English by Paul Anka as My Way and sung by Sinatra.
Per the sleeve notes “inspired by Frankie” (Sinatra)……..for those who like to know these things (maybe no one!) ;- )
TonySad loss….so many to chose from but Hunky Dory is a great album….
….starts with Changes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQTENuQYgjM ….then Oh you pretty things and just the first few notes of my favourite Life on Mars takes me back….
Added later:
I just realised part of the magic of the song is the lyrics….the start of Life on Mars hooks me in….”It’s a god-awful small affair to the girl with the mousy hair”
then the chorus
“Sailors fighting in the dance hall Oh man! Look at those cavemen go It’s the freakiest show Take a look at the Lawman Beating up the wrong guy
Oh man! Wonder if he’ll ever know He’s in the best selling show Is there life on Mars?”
The tune ain’t half bad either….perhaps with inspiration from the second movement of Rachmaninoff’s Piano Concerto No. 2?
The French song “Comme d’habitude” was re-written in English by Paul Anka as My Way and sung by Sinatra.
Per the sleeve notes “inspired by Frankie” (Sinatra)……..for those who like to know these things (maybe no one!) ;- )
TonyVery sorry to hear Geoff…..Penny looks lovely and it’s always sad to lose a much loved pet who brings so much pleasure and comfort….humans could learn a lot from them!
She had a good innings for a dog and at least she’s not suffering…..in time I am sure you’ll get another rescue dog.
Best wishes,
Tony
Sign In
