Putins enemies sure have a nasty habbit of dying.

General Lebed was killed in a Mi-8 helicopter crash in 2002.

He led negotiations which ended the First Chechen War in 1996 and came third in the 1996 Presidential elections and was a contender to suceed Yelstin.

In 1997, Lebed alleged in an interview with Sixty Minutes that the former Soviet Union had lost some suitcase-sized nuclear weapons.

Both the US and Russia denied Soviet suitcase bombs were placed in various sites in continental America and Europe to be ready by special forces (apparently under KGB control rather than GRU military intelligence).

President Putin said in an interview with Barbara Walters in 2001 said “I don’t really believe this is true. These are just legends…. but there is no documentary confirmation of those developments.” Instead of denying they even existed, I suppose it would have gone against the grain for Putin to say yes ‘we had suitcase bombs already in place ready to blow up cities in America or Europe’.

Putin as the former head of the KGB/FSB would have known what the defector Lunev (a former GRU officer) said about the minature nuclear bombs (similar to an artillery shell in a suitcase): they were called RA-115s (RA-115-01s for submersible weapons) weighed 50-60llbs and lasted for many years wired to an electric source and with a battery backup. If the battery failed, the weapon had a transmitter to send a coded message by satellite or directly to GRU operatives at Russian embassies. Lunev, said the number of “missing” nuclear devices (as per General Lebed) was almost identical to the number of strategic targets upon which those bombs would be used”.

Putins enemies sure have a nasty habbit of dying.

Elie Hobeika, the Lebanese Phalangist leader and commander of the fighters at the Sabra/Shatila massacre, was was killed on in 2002 by a car bomb. His deputy, Dr Jean Ghanem, had crashed his car and died soon after a few days before. Hobeika had said Ghanem’s death was not accidental.

Elie Hobeika publicly declared his intention to testify against Ariel Sharon about his involvement in the Sabra/Shatila massacre in a Belgian court’s trial for crimes against humanity. This would have been politically very embarrassing for Israel.

Hobeika told Belgian Senator Dubie a few days before his death that he had revelations about the Sabra/Shatilla massacres but felt threatened.

Dubie asked him why he did not reveal all immediately, but Hobeika said: “I am saving them for the trial”.

Lebanese Interior Minister Elias Murr accused Israel of being behind the car bomb, citing a trace on the license plates of the car but this was denied by Israel.

I would add we’ll never know who planted the car bomb (4 oxygen cylinders in his own car enhanced the explosion) as he had plenty of enemies. Hobeika had his hand in a lot of murders himself if you accept allegations in a book published in 1999 by his former bodyguard, Robert Hatem, accusing his former boss of masterminding assassinations and crimes.

HEALTH AND SAFETY MYTHS – THE TRUTH BEHIND THE HEADLINES

Well done Turbina for your post!

The half truths and just plain lies printed to sell papers are swallowed by many accepting that if it’s in the papers it must be true! If you must read the say The Sun or Mail (well put together rags I must say :diablo: ) then just get a grip and think there might be a bit more to a story than at first glance! 😀

The only similar case I can recall (outside of fiction) is the umbrella poisoning case of the Bulgariann dissident in London in the 80s.
What’s the concensus in that case? Wasn’t it Bulgaria with technical help from the KGB?

Georgi Markov was killed in 1978 on Waterloo Bridge by Francesco Gullino, a Dane of Italian origin working for Bulgarian intelligence. A 0.2 milligram dose of Ricin poison was administered by dart fired from an umbrella tip and Markov died within 4 days.

Markov’s assassination was only detected because the pellet carrying the poison had not dissolved as expected. Pictures were plastered all over the British papers of a tiny sphere with holes drilled in it after it was recovered from his leg in the post mortem in Porton Down.

Vasil Kotsev, the Bulgerian operational commander of the Markov assassination plot (technical assistance was provided by the KGB), died in an unexplained car accident.

Right of return is reasonable. Expecting the return of East Jerusalem to serve as their capital is reasonable.

For an Israeli government to accept the Right of Return of of Palestinians to their former homes would mean it accepting they rightly belong there and should not have had to leave or have been “encouraged” to leave (Menachem Begin, head of Irgun, later Prime Minister of Israel), said because of massacres like Deir Yassin “Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of “Irgun butchery,” were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated”.

The idea was to terrorize and “encourage” the Arabs to leave or they would get more of the same. The irony was lost on Begin, who in wanting to “avoid more Treblinkas” (Nazi concentration camp), behaved just like the Nazis.

So when some Israelis and John Bolton (US ambassador to the UN) say there is no moral equivalence between the actions of Israel in killing thousands after 2 soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah (remember it all started with the killing of the Palestinian family on the beach by an Israeli shell in early June) and the response by the Palestinians or Hezbollah, we should not hesitate to tell Israelis the death of a person does not mean more if that person is Jewish. The death of any human being is important, even if they are not Jewish. The Israeli government does not have any moral or special superiority over other countries, nor should it carry out with impunity any action it pleases because right is might and that’s the only language those Arabs can understand! :rolleyes:

Many Israelis would like the Arabs “transferred” elsewhere. I believe Adolf Eichman also used this term when commenting on the “transfer” or “transport” of Jews in trains and cattle wagons.

It is worth remembering the response by Irgun and the Stern Gang to the UN mediator Count Bernadotte of Sweden (same country as Wallenberg who saved many thousands of Jewish lives from the Nazis) after he recommended to the U.N.”the right of the Arab refugees to return to their homes in Jewish controlled territory at the earliest possible date.”

He was murdered next day in an operation directed by Yitzshak Shamir (later Prime Minister of Israel). “We won’t deal with terrorists”. What do this think they were then (and who later led Israeli governments)? But I guess there is no “moral equivalence” even when doing the same things as Palestinians!

Even the US does not recognise the annexation of East Jerusalem by Israel, nor does the rest of the international community. Every country (other than El Salvador) has their embassy in Tel Aviv and not in Jerusalem. East Jerusalem can be the capital of a Palestine comprising only 22% of the original.

Regarding the UN and Israel, you might want to hear the other side of the story. You might disagree with some of it, but I’m sure that it just can’t be ignored:
http://www.adl.org/international/Israel-UN-1-introduction.asp.

Erez, my friend, I’m sure you will agree that any right-minded person seeking the truth would always look at every side of a story. So thanks for bringing to people’s attention the Anti-Defamation League’s site; it has some valid points about the UN (why they arose is another story) and whilst I don’t agree with quite a lot of it, it is always good to see another viewpoint. While talking about how biased the UN is, they might also wish to point out that it was actually a UN (!) resolution that called for the partition of Palestine into two states: Israel and Palestine! 😉

Jewish writers and journalists that have spoken far more eloquently on this subject than I ever could. Men such as Amos Oz, a man of strong moral stature (ironically he changed his name to Oz, strength in Hebrew), Professor of Literature at Ben-Gurion University in Be’er Sheva, who is respected and admired throughout the World (winner of Goethe Prize 2005).

Oz served in the Israel Defence Force with a tank unit in Sinai in 1967 and on the Golan Heights in 1973. Since then, he has been at the forefront of the peace movement in Israel. While I may not necessarily agree with all of his views, he put it best when he wrote in his essay “How to Cure a Fanatic”, is what we are talking about is basically a real estate or land dispute.

1) Zionism started a lot before the holocaust (around 50-70 years, depends how you look at it). The holocaust itself was not a reason for the creation of Israel, but it was the greatest example of antisemitism and persecution of Jews, who therefore needed their own homeland.

The Italian chemist, Primo Levi, always appealed to me as I studied Biochemistry at University (though sadly I’m now in Finance!). Levi survived Auschwitz because he worked in the Buna laboratory that produced synthetic rubber – only because he knew some german (a lot of Chemistry and Biochemistry scientific journals are in german) and because of his training. After the war he wrote ‘If This Is a Man’ (Se questo è un uomo) and later ‘The Truce’ (La tregua). The evil that lives in the hearts of men and the cruelty they are capable of carrying out is laid out clearly in those memoirs of the holocaust. No thinking person can look at the Nazis’ inhumanity and their persecution of Jews with anything but revulsion.

The point is the holocaust WAS one of the major drivers for the realisation and creation of the State of Israel by the victors of the second world war on land that was already occupied by Arabs and had been for generations. So when you say later the Jews didn’t fall out of the sky into Palestine, yes they did! While I might even agree with a notion of a homeland for the Jews, certainly not in a place where there is someone there already!

There were only ever a few tens of thousands of Jews in Palestine in the early 1900s; most of the 12 million Jews then lived in Russia, Poland, America and Eastern Europe and many of the European (Ashkenazim) Jews are actually descended from Khazars, converts in the 7th to 11th century in Southern Russia, Ukraine,Crimea, causcaus states (Judaism was state religion of the Khazars, a Turko-Finnish people, you’ll love being related to Gollevainen! :p ) and from mitacondrial DNA studies are not even semites! Middle-eastern origin Jews, the Mizrahi (not talking about Sephardic Jews from Spain or Portugal) are a very small minority in Israel along with their fellow semitic Arabs (both Christian and Muslim) but you will know more about this than I ever could!

As for Palestine being the home of the Jews for a few hundred years a couple of thousand years ago, yes it was- I agree with you! We all know about King Herod, a historical figure for whom we have tons of evidence. Interesting though that no archealogical evidence found for King David at all!

If you go further back, the true home of the Jews (and their fellow semites, the Arabs) is the place where Abraham (common father of Jewish Isaac and Arab Ishamel) was born: the ancient Chaldean city of Ur in Northern Mesopotamia (straddles Modern day Iraq/Turkey), now in southeastern Turkey. Some of the “lost tribes” stayed in exile in what is modern day Iraq, so why not stake a claim for a homeland there because your ancestors originally were from there! 😀 :diablo:

2) Zionism never used any god given promises to justify its existance and the creation of Israel. A brief look at the declaration of establishment of the State of Israel will show you the reasons stated by the Zionist leadership for the creation of Israel, and will also show you that they did not forget the land’s Arab inhabitants:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Declaration%20of%20Establishment%20of%20State%20of%20Israel].

Forgive me Erez, but you are being slightly disingenuous again, as you were when you said to Grey Area that the Jewish public did not support the terrorism against the British army and Arabs that helped establish Israel, when the same Jewish public voted the former terrorist leaders Menachem Begin (Irgun) and Yitshak Shamir (Lehi/”Stern Gang” who unbelievably told the Nazis they would join with them against the British in exchange for allowing Jews to come to Palestine!) in as Prime Ministers! These were the direct antecedents of the Heruts and Likud parties.

The raison d’etre of Israel is as a Jewish State, based on religion. You would do well to look up one of the most famous quotes of David Ben Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel:

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” (David Ben Gurion, Israeli Prime Minister 1948-1963).

If, like me, you don’t believe the Bible when it says Abraham, father of the Jewish people, lived for 175 years and he was born 2,000 years after the world was “created” in 4004 BC (I believe the Earth is around 4.5 Billion years old 😉 ), then I wouldn’t be happy if someone quoted the Book of Numbers to justify the Jewish claim to that bit of Earth! (if, by the way, you actually read the Book of Numbers today, it seems amazingly narrow and parochial in its subject matter, dealing with the goings on of just one tiny group of people, as against the problems of the rest of humanity!)

You say your link to the Israeli Foreign Ministry website shows you that they did not forget the land’s Arab inhabitants. Well, your link also does not mention what Yitzhak Rabin, said in an uncensored version of his memoirs, published in the New York Times (23 October 1979):

‘We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question – What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said “Drive them out!” 😀 :diablo:

Yitzhak Rabin, Prime minister of Israel, in his memoirs in Hebrew, Pinkas Sherut, mentioned something in the 1948 war that had troubled him ever since: the forced expulsion by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) of 50,000 Palestinians from Lod-Ramle. An Israeli cabinet committee ordered this section be removed against Rabin’s wishes, but this was revealed by the English translator and published in The New York Times. So much for not forgetting the Arab inhabitants! 😮 😮

Regarding the way to make peace with the Palestinians, that’s a very simplistic analysis, but basically all I could say is that the road for peace will demand concessions from both sides – not just from Israel.

You might say it’s a simplistic analysis; actually, it is an analysis by the Jewish writer Amos Oz, who stated that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not a war of religion or cultures or traditions, but actually a real estate dispute- that will be resolved not by greater understanding, but by painful compromise!

He further added, that “Two Palestinian-Israeli wars have erupted in this region. One is the Palestinian nation’s war for its freedom from occupation and for its right to independent statehood. Any decent person ought to support this cause.

The second war is waged by fanatical Islam, from Iran to Gaza and from Lebanon to Ramallah, to destroy Israel and drive the Jews out of their land. Any decent person ought to abhor this cause.” (Amos Oz, April 7, 2002)

I don’t believe in any organised religion, Jewish, Muslim or Christian, so of course I’m with Amos Oz against ANY extremists or those that would impose their beliefs on the rest of us, so convinced are they that they are right! But let’s not confuse the issue by invoking this when this is really about someone coming and taking your land! What would you do in their shoes?:)

No one stole anything. This land did not belong to the Arabs..

Now you really are making fun of us! 😀 😀 In your heart of hearts you must know that to say this land did not belong to the Arabs is ridiculous! Even Ben Gurion said (see above quote) we stole the land from the Arabs! Who do you think owned the land under the Ottomans or the British ? No one!? This is funny especially after you also wrote:

Jewish settlements before 1948 were always established over land legally bought from the local Arab sheikhs.

You seem to accept the Arabs must have had title from someone, be it from Ottoman times or under the British Mandate (interestingly ordinances from the British mandate are apparently still used to sequester Arab land, particularly around Jerusalem, the city where Amos Oz was born and he knows better than many what really happened – half his books are set within a few miles of where he was born in Jerusalem). This title to the land is still valid even after the State of Israel was declared in 1948.

I hope you live long and prosper Erez, but I suspect this might prove difficult if you close your mind to what you deep down know is a cruel injustice to the Palestinians. They’re not going to sit quietly and take it forever and unless there is a meeting of minds and mutual compromise (including now, however unfair to the Palestinians, acceptance of Israel) there will never be peace.

Alright, then prove the so called “almost-Arab-slavery”

I can understand Hurrifan’s frustration boiling over because even Jewish sources know the truth of Palestinian workers having to get up at 2am or 3am to get to a checkpoint at 4am in the hope of being a labourer or work on a construction site in Israel. Often IDF personnel slap, kick or insult, or make them wait without reason under the blazing sun. At times, beatings led to severe injury or shooting of a car and the death of a worker. Most of the “light” abuse remains unreported, either because of fear of filing a complaint or because of the difficulties involved in doing so. But don’t take my word for it, this is from Yehezkel Lein, a Jewish activist.

The question you must ask yourself Erez is what would you do if your life was lived under this daily humiliation, with no means to provide more than a subsistance existence for your family and no hope for the future?

Come on, the UN was always seriously anti-Israel. I admit that there were some positive movements in the last couple of years though. But don’t expect Israel to implement all those out-of-touch-with-reality UN resolutions, which always demanded Israel to risk itself.

About the new building in the West Bank, I don’t want to go there, both because it’s off topic and probably because I’m against it as you are.

Erez my old chap, come on! “Out-of touch-with-reality UN resolutions” means you pick and choose those that you agree with and those you don’t want to implement you simply ignore because you can and America will veto any that get too close to the bone! (interesting they didn’t veto 242!)

I appreciate we agree that the continuing building of new settlements is not helpful as well as being illegal under international law. Despite being contrary to commitments made to the US to halt expansion of the settlements, ironically it is made possible only by US subsidies; but ask Bush Senior how difficult to bend Israel’s ear in practice with even sound advice with the lobby in Congress that says never criticise!

Forceable sequestration of land from Arabs, often on questionable grounds, particularly around Jerusalem, also does not help, but we know Israel is doing this and building further Jewish settlements on the West Bank to make it more difficult to give this land back to the Palestinians. These actions will not change the fact that all foreign Embassies are in Tel Aviv not Jerusalem (except El Salvador-don’t ask! 😀 :diablo: ) because even the US will not challenge international law that does not recognise the annexation of East Jerusulem by Israel.

The truth is the Palestinians are being denied any remedy to their legitimate grievances. The way they live is a pressure cooker waiting to burst. Should they just accept their ill fate with meekness and docility? The main persecutors and killers of Jews were European: Germany, Russia, Poland, Lithuania etc (earlier in Spain and the Catholics with the inquisition, pogroms in most European countries). To atone and pay for these cruel EUROPEAN crimes, the Palestinians had their country was stolen from them on the basis that God gave this land to the Jews in the Book of Numbers in the Bible 3,000 years ago, forget that in the meantime Arabs had lived there for generations.

You will never get peace with the Palestinians until you address their genuine grievances and the misery of their daily existence. One way forward is to return just 22% of the original Palestine, including East Jerusalem.

By the way, you will always get extremists on all sides that don’t want to compromise or reason. But if you don’t even engage with them at any level, where else but to the extremists will the majority turn to? (witness the elections that ousted the corrupt Fatah faction and voted in Hamas). What have they got to lose? Should they just continue to be beasts of burden, merely to supply labour for Israel?

Oh, the irony. Finland plans to send 250 soldiers to Lebanon.

On the contrary, the real irony is that Israel wants UN resolutions to disarm Hezbollah to be implemented, and yet when the boot’s on the other foot, namely implementation of UN resolution 242 (return to 1967 borders) Israel doesn’t want to know!

Instead, just keep building more settlements on the West Bank (financed by massive US taxpayers money-it’s only the annual US Aid Package subsidy that allows Israel to do this), to create “facts” on the ground. O what a tangled web we weave! 😀