MysindaGood morning everybody,
Hello Kevin,
Sorry again for not having written earlier, but I admit, time goes so fast! And again, apart from my family life, I have undertaken various things Kevin has already spoken here on the thread, like contact with the families of the crew of Dominique … which, incidentally, has already protected its fruit twice, so I was very encouraged! I can not count the phone calls I could make, positive contacts but also negative ones when people hang up almost nose!
So I have this contact with the GUILLOCHEAU family… And the LHOMOND family , which I expect the return soon I hope.
Another thing: during this research there, I realized that over the 6 crew members died September 10, 1944, along with Dominique, only 2 appeared on memorials in France! I found this very unfair, and for good reason … So I said to myself that I would try everything to get “compensation”, at least with regard to Dominique, my great-uncle. Being born in Marseille like me, should I turn to my town of birth. And I thought it was imperative that I find a way to get a boost, say, for the City of Marseille is like a fortress, and I weigh my words! Recently, a friend of mine, from my little childhood, wrote to me that she knew the First Deputy Mayor of Marseille, so I sent him a file, which I hope will attract his attention … I cross my fingers! Make all the same …
Kevin,
Thank you so much to post and update news on this thread … what would I do without you? You have brought to my humble history more than valuable information, support, help, this is incredible, and I want to thank you, many will agree with me, certainly … Also, and I repeat, it is foremost a human adventure …
Icare,
Thank you a lot, the link that you have made is exciting, the power of the Internet is truly incredible , as you wrote…
Super Sioux,
Thank you also, it is a beautiful work, but you can enlighten me, because I have very little knowledge on the subject, all this is so exciting.
Well, have all a beautiful sunday, even though as concerns here, it is rather cloudy!
Best wishes to all of yours,
Sandra.
MysindaHello,
At this late hour, I am writing briefly … and will write longer tomorrow! …
Kevin,
I wrote to the daughter of Sergeant Chief FINALE, and she certainly can answer our question regarding the identity of the man on the left of the photo, at least whether it was her father or not.
Regarding the letter whose traslation you have posted, my great-grandfather Henry told me later in the day on the phone that it was through this letter that the family had learned the sad news … It is incredible and so touching … in times of war, information had to be many difficulties to move.
Great news: today I received the documents preserved by the Historical Department of la Défense … informations are numerous! We will be able to use them to advance more abd more.
Kevin, patience … tomorrow, I will communicate all this to you!
Good night,
Sandra
MysindaNews from the French Alps!…
Hello everyone,
We have some interesting news in our researches about Dominique … the pieces of the puzzle are little by little put in place, we are not at the end of our surprises, I am sure! …
Kevin,
I made a “call for witnesses” on my side, sending the photo to some contacts … Philippe Ducastelle, remember his website http://halifax346et347.canalblog.com/, replied by giving me his first analysis, this is what he wrote:
Photo taken in England I believe in a family home, Dominique BIAGGI with the little dog!
For cons the airman on the left of the photo must be from a crew in the RAF or R.C.A.F??
see a cloth badge on his flight uniform.
He also writes that he will put the photo in the “search” of his website, that is done, I just saw it there http://halifax346et347.canalblog.com/archives/avis_de_recherche/index. html
Friendly yours,
Sandra.
MysindaHello everyone,
Hi Kevin,
Regarding the military course of Dominique before England, and following the reference of his comrade, Jean Calmel, I finally found this, waiting for more specific information.
It was General Martial Valin, which takes the first initiative to name the units in 1941. Commander of the Free French Air Forces in exile in Britain, General Valin, led by General De Gaulle, is gradually up the first unities that will air fight with the allies. Give them a name of province is a strong sign that while the majority of French follows closely the Vichy government and a minority does not accept the occupation and collaboration, there are many French patriots, “outre-manche” (in England) who will fight for a free France. The tradition will be kept on the Liberation and kept until today.
Thus, it appears that Dominique was part of the Group Vendée or Group I/11, alongside fellow cited by Jean Calmel and the latter …
Apparently, they fought on the A-24 aircraft, according to another source.
I, for the moment, am struggling to find out more.
I asked French Internet users on other forums, and will keep you informed,
Friendly yours,
Sandra.
MysindaHello everyone,
Hello Kevin and Icare9,
You are doing an incredible job, thank you so much! … it is a very interesting track, but such a tedious work!
I am still waiting with the same impatience, for the replies to letters and questions to some contacts, about which I have already spoken …
Meanwhile, this morning I had a email from Paul Bogaert, President of the Association of the Groupes Lourds: he briefly wrote some words about this man that was brave and honorable, Jean Calmel. The General Jean Calmel counted a lot in the history of Heavy Groups. In the middle of the 80’s he has revived the Association in the chair until his death in 1987. He has held positions in the Air Force then in Civil Aviation. His widow is the Vice-President of the Association, and I will be getting in touch with her: she could probably help me with valuable information.
Well, now we must be a little patient, we are all at a good pace.
Friendly yours,
Sandra.
MysindaI sent the messages about which I talked to you in a previous message, and I will post as soon as I get any response,
See you very quickly,
Friendly yours,
Sandra.
Mysindakev35: At the risk of maybe sending the thread in an offbeat direction, I was a little puzzled by the number of bomb hang ups reported for this Squadron. it seemed to occur at about the time they switched from Halifax Mk III (Merlin engined but with Dowty undercarriage, thus limiting the total weight of bombs) to the Halifax Mk V. (Centaurus radial engines).
… … …
Just my speculation, but maybe others can cast a more expert opinion?
Icare9.
No problem at all and it may just be that you have provided the answer to a mystery. Certainly seems possible. I’ve found at least two incidences of hung up bombs within the Squadron and suspect that there are more. A fuller examination of the portion of the ORB that I have would be required to substantiate that. Whilst unsure about the method of dropping the bombs, and the reason for the hang up, I do know that a lot of bombs of American manufacture were used as the British capacity for dropping bombs was outsripping the ability to produce them!
Any thoughts are welcome on any aspect of this thread. You have given me another avenue to explore.
Regards,
kev35
Kevin and Icare9,
I can tell you that this is too technical for me, but you both are completely right, it deserves to be explored … I can not help thinking about the testimony that you all know, that of Lieutenant-Colonel VENOT, in which he wrote that the bomb was dropped, no doubt, and there was no problem upon him .. We may get to avoid this mystery, with the help of all.
To be continued …
Thank you very much for your efforts and your interest, Icare9!
Mysindakev35: I frequent this and other forums and initially when looking at “New Posts” items I wondered what all this correspondence about an Italian cook was all about, but didn’t resonate with me that it could have been such an absorbing thread! I haven’t anything more to say, except “Thanks” for showing the true worth of a forum can be.
I’ve been trying to do my little bit for the families of the crew of Halifax HR732 lost without trace on the raid to Leipzig 4th December 1943. Usually that means the aircraft crashed into the North Sea or other large body of water. Unusually however, the pilots widow received his wdding ring but no other personal or ID efffects some 3 years after the end of the War. She thinks it came from the USA which makes us think that a US Graves Registration Unit may have come across the ring when exhuming some US crew. From whatever else they found, they were able to correctly return the ring. However no later ID of remains of the pilot F/O A J Salvage or any of the crew occurred. We think the Halifax was hit twice by flak and exploded shortly before dropping its bombs as another 51 Sqn Halifax rear gunner reported seeing that happen. As they took off only a few minutes apart it is possible that what he saw was HR732 as no corresponding fighter claim matches with HR732 and the other aircraft lost that night have been identified apart from one Lanc which usually flew several thousand feet higher.
Had it crashed in Occupied Territory, I’m sure the local populace would have come forward regarding crash sites, but I have no way of knowing how best to access German flak or police records for that night to try and identify potential crash sites. Exploding in mid air would have caused the fragments of the aircraft to land widely separated and may not have had easily identifiable Sqn codes or serial number to aid identification by the authorities. The fact that no crew identification occurred would also indicate some catastrophic event as trapped or baled out crew etc were generally still identifiable.
So we too are stuck until we find a way round the impasse.
I salute you and wish you a successful conclusion to your search. You have done a great job and proved that people can help each other! Well done, mate!
I totally agree with you, Icare.
Indeed, Kevin has done and is still doing an incredible job, and I can never thank him enough … as the valuable assistance of all the implications of the other internautes.
Your investment and your good will are also unlimited, you deserve all the best encouragements for the continuation of your researches … they will lead to positive things, it is certain, you seem to believe in it, and I think that’s a good thing …
Thank you again very much for your message.
MysindaI seem to have hit something of a dead end. Until we hear from Sandra again I think I’ve taken this about as far as I can.
It’s a thread I’ve learned a lot from, both in terms of the history and in terms of the methods used to uncover what we have so far. Maybe the information within this thread might be useful to others.
Thanks to everyone for all their help and interest. Fingers crossed that something comes up which enables us to go that bit further.
Regards,
kev35
No, this is not the end, I am sure …
MysindaIt’s time to ask for help again. As well as looking into Dominique Biaggi I have been doing some reading around, both through the internet and in a couple of books I’ve picked up by 346 Squadron personnel. I am reading the book Night Pilot by Jean Calmel, a pilot with the Squadron. Calmel writes movingly of the tragedy that befell Lieutenant Colonel Venot and his crew on their return from Octeville. He writes…..
“It was an immense grief for me, for in this crew there were four veterans from my Squadron of I/II group whom I loved like brothers. I stood there and wept as I thought of Kipferle, Coupeau, Finale and Biaggi.”
This implies that those four saw service with the Armee de l’Air. At the beginning of the book Calmel writes that Group I/II saw distinguished service against the Germans, in France itself and later in North Africa following the Armistice. It appears from the book that Calmel left Algiers in August of 1943 on the SS Orbita arriving in England approximately a fortnight later. They landed at Liverpool on 9th September 1943 and went to West Kirby. Now come the questions…….
If the statement by Calmel about these four being veterans, were Biaggi, Kipperle, Coupeau and Finale flying actively in France prior to the Armistice?
Were they flying from North Africa following the Armistice? Is there a mistake in Sandra’s assumption that he left Marseille for Tunis in August 1943?
Does anyone know where I can obtain some idea of the activities of Groupe de Bombardement I/II from May 1940 until August of 1943?
Finally, was Kipperle really named Kipperle, or was it Fabre as mentioned, in brackets, in the ORB? Or was it Kipferle as Calmel writes?
Any help here would be greatly appreciate. I have Googled but found nothing of any substance so far.
Regards,
kev35
Indeed, it is disturbing! I will also ask for it in my message to the Lieutenant in the Air Force which I have mentioned earlier, asking him some things about this story … I will also attach the same message to the President of l’Association de l’Amicale des Groupes Lourds, he has contacts with veterans. It’s exciting …!
MysindaYesterday evening, I returned to home base with a friend after a week spent in St Tropez and Cannes. I took off from Cannes and flew to the North of Marseille, over Orange, Montelimar, past Lyon, Macon, Dijon, Troyes, Reims, St Quentin around Paris, over Albert and Abbeville. Often seen from our height were many, many white crosses, standing brightly, but poignantly, in the beautiful sunlight. As I coasted out over the mouth of the Somme river on this historic day 100 years after Monsuier Bleriot’s epic flight across Le Manche, I paused to contemplate the sacrifice made by so many people of many nations to ensure France regained her rightful freedom, not once, but twice.
My grandfather, a Scotsman who had immigrated to Canada in the early part of the 20th centuary, came with the Canadians during the First World War. As a Leiutenant, he saw action in many battles in France. He was mortally wounded in the Somme, but miraculously survived against all odds.
His injuries prevented his returning to France for the Second World War. But that didn’t stop him being personally responsible for the training of Canadian troops prior to their dispatch for the French battlefields, such was his commitment to help ensure the freedom of France.
My grandfather passed away in 1996 at the respectable age of 101. In all the years I was fortunate enough to know my grandfather, he never once expressed regret at the injuries he suffered, and the restrictions they placed on his later life. He was content that his ‘minor’ contributions had helped the people of France in their times of need.
My own military service was fortunately during a time of peace within Europe. My visitations to France during that time and since have been entirely pleasurable. This is entirely due to the efforts of all those who gave of themselves during two world wars, and I for one, express my gratitude.
Kev, Robbo and Sandra who we read on here, and those we don’t on other forums, I salute you all and look forward to further developments. A common cause unites and brings worthy results. Good luck.
camlobe
It is a beautiful story that you wrote there, Camlobe, and I thank you …
As you wrote, we are all here on this forum to share stories, with passion, we interview, and then finally combine our efforts to preserve the memory of all those who fought for our freedom, and those who never returned from the battlefield.
I smiled reading that you came back from a week in the South of France, because I was born in Marseille, close to Saint-Tropez and Cannes, and I left the big city to the French Alps, not far from there.
MysindaNot sure if this has already been mentioned but there appears to be a book about 346 Squadron: ‘Halifax for Liberte! by Louis Bourgain The story is based on Louis Bourgain’s original and humorous record of the experiences of Pilot Officer Jules but also includes some more sombre records, as well as added historical background surrounding ‘Little France’. Originally as ‘Sarabande Nocturne’, this was the best selling aviation book in France.
Apologies if this has already been mentioned
Indeed, Lion Rock, I read this book recently, “Sarabande Nocturne”: it is a poignant book, imbued with humor but also a great sensitivity. A testimony to read …! For against, I did not know that the English title was “Halifax for liberté!”…
Kevin, I remember you looking for this book, in one of your previous posts, do you want me to take a look on the side of a publishing house “La maison du livre de l’Aviation”, which offers books in french and english?
MysindaAn absolutely splendid thread.
Regards,
John
hello kev35 , robbo, sandra. been following this research you are all to be congratulated for every thing you have accomplished . regards ken
I absolutely agree with you … It is an incredible work that Kevin is doing…
MysindaSandra.
A little more for you. Firstly, I had a reply from the RAF Museum who unfortunately cannot trace the loss card for NA585. It is possible it has been misfiled although, if I remember correctly, before the days when copiers were readily available, the Archive did suffer a certain amount of pilfering. I suspect the card would tell us no more than we already know, I was just hoping to obtain a copy for completeness. I also had a reply from the Air historical Branch who couldn’t really tell us anything new with the exception of how to obtain a French Record of Service. You may already have this address but I include it here just in case.
Armee de L’Air Service Historique,
chateau de Vincennes,
BP110-00481 Armees,
France.… … …
I think that little lot will do for today. Expect a package in the post in the next week or so.
Regards,
Kevin Mears
23rd july 2009 at 18:27, post by Kevin.
Kev,
In fact, I wrote them some time ago already, at this address, and I can tell you, Kevin, that I look with great interest every day at my mailbox, waiting for their response … I also think that their help will be very valuable, but the “old lady” or “the great silent old lady”, as they say in France with some humor, takes her time to answer me! One day the mail will come …
As concerns the medals, I am certain that my grandfather had never mentioned any! It is an incredible detail that you found there, Kevin! I will give a call to my grandfather in a few time … I have a friend who lives in our village, and he was a legionnaire and a nurse in the Army, now retired. I will ask him where I can get informations about these medals and approaches to do. It’s really exciting! I will post as soon as I know.
PS: I want to write to all of yours once again my deep gratitude. My next absence will be only 3 or 4 days, the time of giving birth to my second babygirl …!
MysindaAn update thanks to Rob’s visit to the National Archives to photograph the ORB. One thing that has become apparent is that we now appear to have a Service Number for Dominique Biaggi which may help Sandra in locating a service record in France.
… … …
That’s it for now, but there’ll be more soon when I’ve cross checked a couple of things.
Regards,
Kev35
Passage of the message written by Kevin, July the 23th at 12h50.
What an unbelievable work you’ve done, Kevin! It’s amazing … And here we find details that I never thought know one day. I do not always realize all the efforts and goodwill that you have proof …
Regarding the story on the Air Bomber, Kipperle, I may have an idea to discover the truth. I have met, in the context of these researches, a Lieutenant in the Armée de l’Air Française, he is passionate about the history of the Groupes Lourds and was at the initiative of a commemorative room near the Bourget, in France. I will send him an email and ask him… Who knows? I imagine that this kind of sensitive information would probably be refused to me given the circumstances. I will keep you informed.
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