StormeagleWhen you have to blame someone it is the government of Lebanon at first.
It is the responsebility of every government to keep away every harm of own people.
For that a government rules over all armed forces in a country.
The government is responsible for the safety of international borders. That is the task of the related border-guards or regular army.
By the way, the Lebanese goverment is still blamed by the UN not to fullfill that duty.
Let us assume the government of Lebanon was tricked by Hezbollah and be surprised. It is still the duty of that goverment to chase that Hezbollah-squad and free the hostages. At least it is the minimum to inform the UN about that.
Condem that incident in public and show good will to solve that problem.
Not doing the Lebanese had to face the consequences from that, which were known from international diplomatic channels in advance. Just for such case given by Israel to prevent such possible incidence through own military deterrence.
When not of short memory, that was not the first bloody border incident on an international border monitored by the UN.
The press pictures on both sides serve national intrests to strengthen the own role at first. At least that showed, that both sides did not use full force at hand. The damage and losses were/are triggered by Hezbollah and so have to be payed by that. Hezbollah is not a poor organisation, when we keep the money-value for its weaponary and payed personal in mind.
You may help the people in Lebanon or elswhere much more, when you blame the ones responsible for that. In that very case it is the goverment of Lebanon at first. Those are the ones, which sweared to prevent all harm from their people and do all for their well-being.
If the response of the Israeli goverment is a clever one is another question.
Sens, you still see things one way only. The Lebanese government’s duty is to protect the people of Lebanon. This means that if they are to blaim they should be blaimed for not defending lebanon against the Israeli aggression. But the problem is that Lebanon DOESN’T have a military to speak of. It is just a token police force that doesn’t have a chance to stand against Israel.
There is no place in the world where it is acceptable if a citizen of country A kidnaps a soldier of country B, then the military and political forces of country A either arest the kidnaper or allows the military of country B to get inside the borders and destroy the infrastructure and kill civilians of country A. THIS IS ONLY ALLOWED FOR ISRAEL. WHY? Do their lives worth more in the face of God or something? Also don’t youo see the conection with the timing for getting Syria and Iran in the game in order to through the blaim to them? I mean there have been dozens of incidents where israeli civilians got killed by Arab bombs and Israel held its horses and now for a mere kidnapping they let loose with everything they have? PLEASE!
StormeagleDo you know, what you write about?!
Lebanon is an independent country and Israel is an independent country.
Both countries does not have a diplomatic relationship, because Lebanon does not regocnise Israel. Despite that, both are UN-members and share a common border marked by the UN. The Lebanese goverment is responsible for the security of that international border. That security of the border was violated by Lebanese citizen (Hezbollah) by attacking Israel.
“The Lebanese army did all to prevent that and jailed that criminals already?!” “The hostages are freed and returned?!”
We keep in mind that the Lebanese government and its regular army are responsible for the security of the Lebanese border and the security of the own people! None prevents the Lebanese goverment to restore a secure border as quick as possible.
As long as the Lebanese government does not show its will to restore the security of the border and return the hostages it has to take the responsibility for all related acts.
It is insane thinking to compare that with German war crimes of WW2.
So Sens in your logic, since the Lebanese army did nothing to stop the Hezbolah from kidnapping 2 israeli soldiers, it is OK for the whole Israeli war machine to stumpeede the Lebanese civilians and civilian targets and infrastructure causing catastrofic blows to the country’s economy, thus effecting future generations as well. Tell me Sens, what is the crime of the children in Lebanon that makes their death logical and understandable?
You are very subjective in your opinion my friend. What Israel does now is exactly what the Germans did in occupied Europe. For the Germans, the resistance was nothing but terrorist killing inocent soldiers when they were not in the front, for the people fighting them they were brutal occupiers that deserved no mercy. It is all in the eye of the beholder at the end…
One thing is certain though: THERE IS NO F..ING EXCUSE FOR MURDERING WOMEN AND CHILDREN. Be it israeli or Palestinian children, it is just the same.
StormeagleDo you know, what you write about?!
Lebanon is an independent country and Israel is an independent country.
Both countries does not have a diplomatic relationship, because Lebanon does not regocnise Israel. Despite that, both are UN-members and share a common border marked by the UN. The Lebanese goverment is responsible for the security of that international border. That security of the border was violated by Lebanese citizen (Hezbollah) by attacking Israel.
“The Lebanese army did all to prevent that and jailed that criminals already?!” “The hostages are freed and returned?!”
We keep in mind that the Lebanese government and its regular army are responsible for the security of the Lebanese border and the security of the own people! None prevents the Lebanese goverment to restore a secure border as quick as possible.
As long as the Lebanese government does not show its will to restore the security of the border and return the hostages it has to take the responsibility for all related acts.
It is insane thinking to compare that with German war crimes of WW2.
So Sens in your logic, since the Lebanese army did nothing to stop the Hezbolah from kidnapping 2 israeli soldiers, it is OK for the whole Israeli war machine to stumpeede the Lebanese civilians and civilian targets and infrastructure causing catastrofic blows to the country’s economy, thus effecting future generations as well. Tell me Sens, what is the crime of the children in Lebanon that makes their death logical and understandable?
You are very subjective in your opinion my friend. What Israel does now is exactly what the Germans did in occupied Europe. For the Germans, the resistance was nothing but terrorist killing inocent soldiers when they were not in the front, for the people fighting them they were brutal occupiers that deserved no mercy. It is all in the eye of the beholder at the end…
One thing is certain though: THERE IS NO F..ING EXCUSE FOR MURDERING WOMEN AND CHILDREN. Be it israeli or Palestinian children, it is just the same.
StormeagleHizbollah is not just a terrorist organization with mines, RPGs, Katyushas, and mortars. Hizbollah today in Lebanon, is no different than having the Erain e an army, at the foot of northern Israel. Hezbollah has Silkworm missiles, Geneva convention prohibited mines (mines designed to look exactly as rocks), Grad rockets, and Jfar 3 missiles etc… Israel no longer has the luxury, to respond in an equal fashion (like a multi-party democracy, should play tit for tat, with a fundamentalist religious terrorist group/army), or offering to give a nice gentle response.
It is no longer a terrorist organization, but a proxy of the Ehrain e uns. Israel cannot leave this type of organization / proxy army intact with such weapons. – They will simply resupply and regroup, and come back with more. It is no different than the V.C. begging for peace talks, and after six months of bombing halts, they would simply walk away from the table and resume their hostilities.
Israel pulling back and looking the other way, when these groups have rearmed and stockpiled sophisticated weapons, has brought nothing but failure, for the Israeli left wing, and their give, give and give some more agenda. These terrorists have gone from rocks and AK 47s, to much more sophisticated weapons. It is time to scale back their armada of weapons.
When Palestinians embrace genuine democracy, freedoms, free elections, organized opposition, and other western style reforms, it will be time to talk about giving some concessions. If they cannot reform, and look for a peaceful negotiated approach, they have no need for Israeli concessions.
With their purposeful bombardments of civilians in towns and cities, routine kidnapping of soldiers, and more murderous threats; it does no good for any multi-party democracy, to give these groups and their supporters, anything but a very heavy response.
I would like to answer to this guy, to Phantom II and all other israel sympathizers. When the Germans shot 10 civilians for every soldier they lost to a resistant fighter, the world cried out for inhumman behavior. Now Israel is killing 100 civilians for the simple kidnap of 2 of its soldiers plus destroys purely civilian infrastructure for the simple reason of escalating the crisis so there is no Palestinian country and there is a good excuse for the US, UK, and Israel to attack Syria and Iran,and the whole western world talks about the Lebanese responsibility … It is Israel who is the Aggressor at this point and not Lebanon. It is Israel who is attacking civilians and civilian targets, not Hesbolah. Wake up and get the facts straight. I am tired of being served US propaganda for the preparation of the US public opinion for unjust causes. Remember the Iraqi WOMD? What happened with them? Where are they? The whole world was saying they didn’t exist and the US went to war for their destruction making their public believe in their anti-WOMD campaign. They even went as far as connecting the 9/11 to Iraq. In fact it was the US attack in Iraq that enabled Al Quida to make Iraq a stronghold. Thousands of Iraqi civilians dead, a “Democracy” to laugh at and yet the US of Mr. Bush, Pearl, Chenney, and cia, want to expand the model over to Syria and Iran…..
Well F…k you! Leave the world alone. Get a better control of your emmisions and energy consumption and let the rest of the planet in peace.
StormeagleHizbollah is not just a terrorist organization with mines, RPGs, Katyushas, and mortars. Hizbollah today in Lebanon, is no different than having the Erain e an army, at the foot of northern Israel. Hezbollah has Silkworm missiles, Geneva convention prohibited mines (mines designed to look exactly as rocks), Grad rockets, and Jfar 3 missiles etc… Israel no longer has the luxury, to respond in an equal fashion (like a multi-party democracy, should play tit for tat, with a fundamentalist religious terrorist group/army), or offering to give a nice gentle response.
It is no longer a terrorist organization, but a proxy of the Ehrain e uns. Israel cannot leave this type of organization / proxy army intact with such weapons. – They will simply resupply and regroup, and come back with more. It is no different than the V.C. begging for peace talks, and after six months of bombing halts, they would simply walk away from the table and resume their hostilities.
Israel pulling back and looking the other way, when these groups have rearmed and stockpiled sophisticated weapons, has brought nothing but failure, for the Israeli left wing, and their give, give and give some more agenda. These terrorists have gone from rocks and AK 47s, to much more sophisticated weapons. It is time to scale back their armada of weapons.
When Palestinians embrace genuine democracy, freedoms, free elections, organized opposition, and other western style reforms, it will be time to talk about giving some concessions. If they cannot reform, and look for a peaceful negotiated approach, they have no need for Israeli concessions.
With their purposeful bombardments of civilians in towns and cities, routine kidnapping of soldiers, and more murderous threats; it does no good for any multi-party democracy, to give these groups and their supporters, anything but a very heavy response.
I would like to answer to this guy, to Phantom II and all other israel sympathizers. When the Germans shot 10 civilians for every soldier they lost to a resistant fighter, the world cried out for inhumman behavior. Now Israel is killing 100 civilians for the simple kidnap of 2 of its soldiers plus destroys purely civilian infrastructure for the simple reason of escalating the crisis so there is no Palestinian country and there is a good excuse for the US, UK, and Israel to attack Syria and Iran,and the whole western world talks about the Lebanese responsibility … It is Israel who is the Aggressor at this point and not Lebanon. It is Israel who is attacking civilians and civilian targets, not Hesbolah. Wake up and get the facts straight. I am tired of being served US propaganda for the preparation of the US public opinion for unjust causes. Remember the Iraqi WOMD? What happened with them? Where are they? The whole world was saying they didn’t exist and the US went to war for their destruction making their public believe in their anti-WOMD campaign. They even went as far as connecting the 9/11 to Iraq. In fact it was the US attack in Iraq that enabled Al Quida to make Iraq a stronghold. Thousands of Iraqi civilians dead, a “Democracy” to laugh at and yet the US of Mr. Bush, Pearl, Chenney, and cia, want to expand the model over to Syria and Iran…..
Well F…k you! Leave the world alone. Get a better control of your emmisions and energy consumption and let the rest of the planet in peace.
StormeagleHAF pilots and I dare say: THK pilots. They are in a continuous war situation since 1974, and dogfight over the Aegean sea ever since with accident and “accident” victims on both sides. Dogfights with no safety limits, from down to the deck to 30.000 ft. When there are cases like: …The locked F16 had to go down to the deck and break at the last possible moment to get off the lock, actually raising water with its afterburner,…one can understand that these are no simple NATO training exercises…By the way, in the above incident a HAF Mirage F1 had gained the “six” of a THK F16 twice and the dogfight went on with the turkish pilot trying to evade. The above manouver almost cost the THK pilot his life, but it did cost the HAF pilot Lt Shialmas, his. The F1 doesn’t have the ability to break like the F16 at low level so he crashed in the Aegean. I do not believe that there is any place currently in the world where dogfights are real and a dailly operation for the last 30 years!
StormeagleHere’s the requested data…
Satisfied?
Maybe you should leave the shipbuilding for others 😀 ?
Argo I am terribly sorry for my ignorance.
I checked too and Croatia DOES have a large shipbuilding industry which I totaly unaware of.
I don’t know if it reached the 4th position in the world or not but that is irrelevant since it became clear to me that it has one of the largest shipbuilding industries anyway.
Please forgive my somewhat sarcastic tone in my previous post. I stand corrected and a little ashamed 😮
StormeagleMy croat friends, could you please provide us with the sources that claim Croatia being the 4th biggest shipbuilder in the world?
Frankly, it is very hard for me to accept that your ship-building industry is larger than US, Germany, France, Greece, UK, …to name but a few…and as proof of what you say you post pictures of a couple of boats that other people could use for recreation….. How about facts like:
How many bulk freighters or tankers, of what tonnage etc you build per year? Eh?
Keep the Dalmatian coast clean for swimming and leave the ship building for others.
StormeagleAccording today’s hellenic newspaper “Espresso” the final decision about the new fighter of HAF is going to be taken by until the end of this June! It also claims that the decision regards only 10+10 possibly Eurofighter-Typhoons I ‘m not sure about the reliability of the newspaper and those info… The present government have prooved to be unpredictable when it comes in such matters (see the additional 10 F-16’s cancelation et. 😉
Relax Petro, Espresso is a BS newspaper and a 10 + 10 idea of a purchase even more so (BS). It just proves how ignorant these people are….As if we were Austria or smt…
StormeagleTo make the long story short:
The crash_incident happened in International Air Space, over International Waters, inside the FIR of ATHENS and as somebody correctly indicated, very close to a commercial air corridor. The problem was not a Greek Airspace Violation, but an intrusion into FIR of Athens without a flight plan being declared to Athens. This means that any civilian flight in the area is in danger because the air controlers in Athens have no clue where the turkish planes will be the next moment. Attitude wise AND Location wise. Now 2 expensive jets collided and one life is probably lost. What would happen and whose fault it would be if during their manouvers, one of the jets (irrelevant from which side) crushed into an airliner…………………..???
Since it is Greece’s responsibility to keep that piece of the sky safe for flights, we are forced to intercept our allied neighbours who willingly ignore the FIR ICAO rules.
StormeagleDoes anyone have information about the progress with the problems came up with the C-27J and the EMB-145H AEW&C ?
From what I heard, the problems with the C27s are over and a third plane at least has been accepted by HAF. The problems with the EMB-145 continue and there are some thoughts not to accept them at all!!!!! I hope it is not again a matter of money for all these “problems” like with the M 2k-5s…… :confused:
StormeagleHehe i know that:) I have been 5 times so far.But i mean some interesting Navy things to see.
Nope!
StormeagleI don’t know about the F5-2000 but the Turkish Air force is definately using HAF F16s and M-2000 as Aggressor aircraft….. 🙂 😉 Sometimes even upgraded F4s PI2000. 😉
StormeagleWell I would play the game the american way:
Get some AWACS from Russia and as many Su-30 as possible with all the Long BVR missiles of mother Russia. Then I would keep them AWACS flying and have them Su-30s shooting at whatever comes its way. I bet you the US would not send any B2 unless all these air assets where destroyed first. So I would try to keep the attrition working for me……Also, I would have my submarine fleet on a do or die mission to sink a flattop and some cruise firing cruisers….keep the numbers high and the US would start looking for excuses to but out of Dodge…
StormeagleI thought it was only the Eritreans that had MiG-29. While a number of those where shot down by Ethiopian SU-27? The Ethiopians also operated MiG-21 and Mig-23.
The Ethiopians shot down Erithrean MiG 29s while flying Su27s. BUT currently both Erithreans and Ethiopians have Su27s in their inventories. This would be smt to see…. if there is a clash between these two….
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