StormeagleAs for Midway, loosing 3 carriers was enough to reduce Japans advantage in quantity and quality of naval strength enough to buy the US time. Code breaking and radar played a large part in that victory, but overall I think luck was the deciding factor.
This is why I think that the Japanese should pursue on their attack on Midway and try to destroy the American carriers with their surface vessels. The american planes had their cassualties and the crew fatigue from the fighting thus far. They could be dealt with and even a loss of another capital vessel on the Japanese side would be acceptable for the sinking of all major carriers in the Pacific…..Think about it…Nonetheless I agree with you totaly in that “codebreaking and LUCK” were THE deciding factor for the US victory. From the malfunction of the catapult on the “TONE,” to the emptying of the skies for the Dive-Bombers, to the change of command from Halsey to Spruance (by the way, I don’t believe nor sugest that Halsey was bad, it’s just that his style was so different from Spruance’s that it actually played its part in the whole picture), LADY LUCK had a field-day…
StormeagleNo thats not what tri in trireme stands for. If you can show me ANY historical proof at all that a trireme at 3 banks of oars, Id like to see it (because there isnt any).
Mixtec,
trust me. Triremes were ships with three rows of oars. There is plenty of proof of that here in Greece from paintings on vases and from scripts describing the ships. There are even different names given for each row of men on the oars (Thranites, Thalamites & Zigites—If I am not mistaken). The Hellenic Navy along with the help of Athens University and other Organizations have actually built a trireme based on the ancient plans and descriptions and it is now an honorary part of the fleet. Her name is “OLYMPIAS” and you can find a lot of relative data on the official Hellenic Navy site.
What are your sources that make you think this is not the case?
StormeagleThe Japanese decision to withdraw from Midway was the right one. The objective of defeating the US fleet was no longer possible, and the objective of capturing Midway was therefore a moot point–without the naval victory, a foothold in Hawaii would be untenable. In fact, Japan’s prospects for capturing Hawaiian territory were never any good.
Tiornu, I ‘ll have to disagree. The Japanese plan to attack the US but not capture Hawaii in the process was wrong from the begining. The Japanese awoke the giant and then just watched as he crushed them little by little with his manufacturing ability. Without Perl, the US would have to start the war effort from California!!!! Meanwhile, the Japanese could even launch an offensive against US targets in the mainland causing a major headache on the US which, if nothing else, would have to deal with the Japanese first and then fight the Germans. Can you imagine what such a change would mean for the whole war effort in the West?
Then in Midway, the Japanese fleet still had the upper hand on surface units and could still win the day, in fact they did try to lure the US fleet towards the Japanese battleships but made their plans based on their information that the US fleet was led by a different admiral than what it really was ( I confuse the names of Spruance and H…-I don’t remember the name). The original admiral got sick and was replaced at the last moment, with the new one being more carefull. He drew back after the sinking of the 4th carrier and thus didn’t fall in the Japanese trap. i still think the Japs should move on and make the landing on Midway.
StormeagleThe result of the Battle of Jutlant is another example of the saying : “Who Dares Wines”. The Germans won the tactical naval battle and lost on the strategic level and in the process the whole War.
Something close happened with the Japanese in Midway: They lost 4 carriers and thought that they had sank 2 american flaptops, instead of going all the way with their Battleship fleet and capturing Midway, they turned tail and left, fearing more air attacks from the US (there were no Torpedo Bombers left for the Americans and only 2 dive bomber sqdrns available. What would have happened if Yamato, Musashi, Nagato and the rest found the Enterprise and the Hornet? What would have happened if the Japanese attacked and captured Hawaii in the first place? I think it proves that if you are ready to take action for something you better pursue it all the way and not secondguess yourself every inch of the way.
A possitive example for that would be the Sea battles of Elli and Limnos during the First Balkan war:
The Hellenic fleet with 2 old Battleships and one new Battlecruiser (Averoff), forced the Turkish fleet (more and larger guns in it’s ships) to remain in the Ellispontos straits while the Greeks liberated the islands of the Aegean. Thus the Turks could not support their troops in Central Macedonia or the islands.
The turning point of the sea battle of Elli was when the Battlecruiser Averoff turned alone against the Turkish fleet and attacked the Turkish Battleships, using it’s supperior speed. The rest of the Greek fleet could not follow up and the Admiralty asked Cm. Kountouriotis not to put the safety of the Averoff at risk. His answer was that :”warships are build to be put at risk.” He chased the Turkish fleet back to the straits and only turned around when the Kalipoli shore batteries started firing against the Averoff.
Mind you that the Turks had 3 relatively new Battleships, some older vessels, some cruisers and destroyers and yet the losses suffered where tremendous on all 3 major vessels. The turkish admiral in charge was demotted and imprissoned (I think). Meanwhile, the Greeks lost one sailor (a trumpeteer) who was left on deck when the ship sealed up for battlestations. The picture of the Averoff comming unscratched out of a barage of turkish salvos, through steam, smoke and coloumns of water, while firing on, made the Turks to call it “Seitan bapor (not sure how it is spelled in Turkish)”–Satan’s ship, and fear of it ever since.
If the commander heard the Admiralty, the Aegean whould probably be under Turkish rule for more years to come, and maybe the situation in the Macedonian front would be different.
And a small detail: the Averoff received its’ ammunition right before the battle and thus the crew had never fired a round before the battle…!!!
StormeagleActually there are some information on the Trireme on the official Hellenic Navy site for the trireme OLYMPIAS :
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/trihrhs_en.asp#
StormeagleMixtec,
The trireme had 3 rows of oars (that is what trireme stands for). Don’t confuse it with other ancient vessels like the penticontor (1 row: 50 oars–that is 25 per side). The reason the Greeks won the battle of Salamis is that they chose where and when the battle would be fought and then tricked the Persians into attacking them at the narrow straits of Salamis where the huge Persian ships could not manouver easily. As far as expertise in Naval battles, don’t forget that a great part of the Persian fleet was actually also manned by Ionian Greek crews and they were good sailors as well. Tactics and manouverability won the day, with a tremendous loss of life and ships for the Persians.
StormeagleFor all of you aircraft lovers, from Google Earth go here :
Tucson – Davis-Monthan AFB Arizona, and have a ball…..
I can see rows and rows of B52, C130s, A10s, Camberas, F102/106s, F14s, F4s, Blackhawks, A4s, An Intruder, F111s, C119s, and dozens more….
Enjoy.
Stormeaglegorgeous camo !! so much better than all other users !
I think you forget the HAF Ghost painted birds…. 🙂 I would say it is the second best camo after the Greek ones 😉 It’s all subjective opinions anyway…
StormeagleIt seems that smth is wrong with those guys both at Dassault and HAF. If I m not mistaken there were many problems with the initial order of M2000 back in eighties. HAF refused to accept them due to radar problems. Now, years later, similar problems apear that have to do with the ESM.
On the other hand I don’t remember any other customer of M2000 either in the past or now to complain for these systems(RDI, ICMS). Some alternatives that one might think:
1) French hate Greeks more than any other customer so they give them faulty equipment.
2) Greeks do really good job at the acceptance tests while countries like India, Egypt, UAE don’t test what they buy.
3) Greeks want everything they buy to be like F-16, so every difference they find they call it “problem”
4) The problems that are mention are not the real ones but there might be others that have to do with money, politics etc.There sould be an explanation. although none of the above seems reasonable I think there sould be an explanation. I don’t think it was a coincidence to happen twice with the M2000.
The issue is that HAF is counting on the M2000 for the interception role of Western (F16C) fighters. This happens on a daily basis with over 20 Turkish violations of Athens FIR and /or violation of National Airspace. Which means that the fighters should be at their prime with all systems working as ordered and as demonstrated when the order was given. There is no space for “bypasses.” Now in addition to this, there is a witch-hunt going on in the HAF procurements where the new goverment is trying to “prove” the old government a thief of public resources. So all contracts go through the microscope and no officer is willing to put his signature on an acceptance document which might be problematic in the future. And to put the icing on the cake: the new goverment and its favorit officers are very pro-american so I wsouldn’t be surprised if all these “major problems” are based on the will to prove the Europeans untrustworthy. I mean, they didn’t accept parts for the TOR missiles for over a year (from the customs), just so that they would come up and say that the system is untrustworthy because it has low availability……go figure. 🙁
StormeagleDo you happen to have a picture of swiss hunters inside their caves-airbases? I remeber seeing a picture with Hunter planes suspended in the air at the ceiling of an underground airbase.
StormeagleHi Dienekes, Exocet and SCALP Naval aren´t that platform specific. Would the Horizon be the most suitable for the HN? Greek shipyards have for years been collaborating with other leading shipyards- surely they have the expertise to develop a vessel specifically suited to the HN´s needs.
Too expensive to start building a class of only 1-2 or even 4 ships. We can not afford them….
StormeagleTake it easy guys. I was just making some fun along with the comment for the italian cars. I mean, after all, Ferraris and Lamborghinis around the world ARE italian made cars and are kicking ass…..Just in the mood to tingle our italian friends. 🙂
StormeagleVery impressive reliability record… zero crashes in 15 years and still none due to technical malfunction. Someone who owns an Italian car wonders how TF is that possible.. the cars are sexi but oh, Lord, they suck hard…
Flex, they can’t BRAKE DOWN IF THEY won’t fly…. :diablo:
I don’t think they have the same hours with say the USArmy Apaches……. 🙂
StormeagleRussian stealth Bomber?
Flogger, is this a photo of the TU180 stealth bomber once mentioned in a russian site? By the way, where did you get this perl? 😮 I remember seeing it once over 4 years ago and then lost it, to such extent that I had begun to think that I dreamt it…. 😮
Stormeagle21 Ankush,
I am afraid that I agree with Hamburger above. If we didn’t have the Turks in the East and the Albanian UCK in the North, then we wouldn’t have to have our Armed Forces in such a size. The way things are, I am not sure if they are enough.
Iranian F14A,
I don’t disagree with you about the quality of the A7. If you read my post you will understand that actually I mention the extended range of the plane and why I don’t believe it can be replaced by F16MLUs in it’s role. BUT, the Air Force has allready decided that the A7s and the old F4s will be retired by 2010-2015. Don’t ask me why, they just did it. Now, as far as the F15s are conserned, they were taken into consideration when we had to pick our next aircraft purchase and finally lost to the F16 52+ so I don’t think it possible to get back in the Air Force’s plans. Better buy more F16s if that is the case.
As for the hellicopters, the DoD has not desided yet if it will upgrade 50 UH1H or if it will buy more NH90s. Any other option is out of the question. Simply put, there are no money.
Now, I don’t like mixing politics with our hobby, but I hate the way things get twisted towards an American solution for the AirForce. Especially with all the hard times that the US is giving us concerning areas of the software and spareparts, whenever the Greek government disagrees with a US policy in a specific subject.
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