Mark EvansOK, does anyone want any made for non-airworthy projects? If drawings are available I’d be interested in working out the costs of making some and seeing if that would work for anyone’s budget. It may do, it may not, but its worth a try and I’d like to get more familiar with the processes in making them.
Mark EvansBump. It would be good to see some updates to this thread.
Spit frame 8 has been mentioned. Excuse my ignorance (more used to looking at Oxfords and Wellingtons) – is frame 8 particuarly complicated? Does anyone have any photos or drawings of it they can post? I’m looking for things one of my under-employed engineers could make.
Mark EvansHi Elliott,
I honestly can’t remember, it was so long ago. I made photographic prints from all the negatives and I’m pretty sure I’ve since scanned them all, so they’re in an easily accessible format. I also indexed them and started adding drawings on their bills of material to the index as well, although that’s not complete. It would make sense to combine the index with the information from the parts list. I’m pretty sure AW re-used minor parts like brackets from earlier designs, so the Whitley probably contains small AW-made parts from earlier AW aircraft. That could be confirmed by cross-referencing parts lists. I assumed you have a copy of the drawings by now.
Mark EvansVickers made geodetic channel for the Wellesley, Wellington etc using a rolling mill – i.e. successive pairs of rollers. It was complicated because the final pair were offset and their position was controlled by cams that could be mechanically programmed to create the bend and twist for the finished part. Without that final pair, it’s a lot simpler. Midland Aircraft Recovery Group is planning to set that up to make geodetic for its Wellington project. That would need 6 pairs of rollers turned on a lathe. Not particularly cheap, even in cast iron, because the rollers need to be at least 6 inch diameter, but already a lot less than £1,000 once the rolling mill itself has been made. There may be a much cheaper way of making the rollers using CNC – which I’m looking into. With the advances in computing, CNC etc we hope to find cost-effective ways of making small quantities of parts.
Mark EvansBeermat – we have a desktop CNC machine that can make patterns for castings, so we may be able to do complex solid alloy shapes. I’m already planning to make turret rings for the FN.5 and will investigate getting them cast in aluminium (not magnesium). I’ll send a PM.
Sopwith.7f1 – hourly rate needs to be worked out. I’d like to keep it in the £25ph area if possible, to encourage as much work as possible. As an enthusiast, I’m frustrated by the high cost of getting anything done and I’d like to help other people move their projects forwards. We can do fabrication, assembly and finishing work. We have most of the tools for sheet metal work as well. We aren’t experienced aero engineers and some training would be necessary before we’re making complete fuselages with double curvature panels (tongue in cheek), but the guys are used to making complicated engines and gearboxes work properly and reliably, so are up for a challenge. We have access to the component parts of a rolling mill, so can aim to make rolled steel and aluminium channel and strip.
Mark EvansPowerandpassion – by all means send me a PM. I’m very unlikely to swap anything from J9590, because I’ve built a collection relevant to this area and it doesn’t have much pre WW2. Having said that, I’ve just started a thread “Who’s interested in having parts refurbished or made?” to see whether a small engineering company I run should do some work in the historic aviation field. Might you be interested in having reproduction parts made?
scotavia – thanks for the update. I’m sorry to hear Ken is no longer with us – he was quite a character and always enthusiastic about vintage projects. We used to have a Bessonneau hangar stored there, as well as various aircraft parts. That is now re-erected on a former WW1 airfield in Italy and houses flying WW1 aircraft, so it went to a good home. Hopefully before much longer we’ll have our own equivalent of Charity Farm to open the collection to the public. We could keep the plastic pests at bay.
Mark EvansI had some Wellington parts stored at a farm strip near Atherstone (North Warks), which was owned by a Ken. If that’s the one then I didn’t know he had died – do you know when that was? I moved the last of my parts from there a few years ago, so no worries on that score, but thanks for the heads-up.
Elliott – I’ll email you and we’ll see what we can do.
Mark EvansThanks for the update Elliott. That’s good news. Do you have the means to produce any drawings? I may be able to help you there if not. I’ve produced a 3D CAD model of the the FN.5 turret and front cupola for the Wellington from the original parts, which makes it much easier to strip and reassemble. A similar model of the Whitley nose would be invaluable for both our projects.
Mark EvansConsul: yes, we have the remains of two Oxfords, both found in Canada. They are Mk I AT605 and Mk V EB518. Both have an intact centre section – i.e. front and rear spars with ribs, firewalls, undercarriages etc – about 18 feet span. Some of the wood can be saved, but the structures need a very thorough rebuild. EB518 is with Mike Eastman and AT605 is still here. Both projects have an almost complete set of metal parts. The wooden parts are fairly straightforward to make, but of course a lot of volunteer man-hours will be essential. We also have a turret cupola, additional cockpit parts and a couple of spare firewalls etc.
Re the Whitley, we make every effort not to compete with “The Whitley Project” and co-operate where possible. The two projects do exchange parts from time to time. We’re not aiming to build a Whitley – just a nose section to display in the Midlands, where all the Whitleys were built. I think we have almost as much as “The Whitley Project” and possibly have more of the nose, with the exception of the front turret.
I should probably explain that our aim in collecting such an eclectic mix of projects is to represent the main aircraft types that flew from the Midlands during the world wars. The aircraft are worth preserving in their own right, but we’re really trying to tell the human story of how they were used in this area. Quick summary:
Wellington Z1206 – represents several Bomber Command OTUs in Warwickshire and Worcestershire
Whitley – 24 OTU (Honeybourne/ Long Marston)
Oxford AT605 – 18 (Pilots) Advanced Flying Unit (Church Lawford/ Snitterfield)
Hurricane – 605 Squadron, 63 OTU (Honiley), 308 Squadron and others
Harvard KF650 – 2 FTS (Church Lawford)
Avro 504J??? – various WW1 units at Castle Bromwich and Lilbourne
Although we haven’t done much restoration work on the Wellington and Oxford, we have done a lot of research into their units – 142 Squadron and 36 Service Flying Training School respectively. Little has been published on either and we’re trying to fill the gap in the historical record by collecting photos, anecdotes, copies of log books etc. This has been reasonably successful and should result in both projects being displayed with the photos and stories of the individual men who flew in them. We’re also in the process of identifying the thousands of aircrew who trained at our local OTUs and other units, and putting their mini biographies on-line. The wider public don’t appreciate the horrendous casualty rate these men faced and we want to tell that story.
Mark EvansWorcs Aviation – the Hurricane project is still in its early stages. We have most of the centre section and fuselage framework. The tail planes are there but need a lot of work. We have an engine from a 605 Sqn Hurricane and most of the cockpit parts. We’re still missing a lot of items though, such as the vertical fin and the tail control surfaces, tailwheel and strut, canopy and frame for the windscreen, prop and lots of panels, fuselage fish plates. Having said that, it’s a pretty good start. We really need to find a wreck with a solid Midlands connection to form the basis of a rebuild: cloud cuckoo land as ever, but most of our projects have started that way.
CeBro – We’re not actively working on the Wellington or Whitley at the moment, but have everything safely stored to prevent deterioration. Once we have a site for a museum we should be able to make more progress. We’ve concentrated on finding the missing parts for both projects and needless to say it’s a long slow process. We have almost everything necessary to rebuild the Wellington front fuselage and fit it out with original equipment, except the top of the control column and yoke, astrodome, seats for co-pilot, W/Op and navigator and various sundry items. The long-term plan for the Whitley is to rebuild a nose section plus rear turret. It should be displayed with the centre section we have from BD232, rear fuselage piece from BD204 and outer wing. We have a rear turret, much of the cockpit floor and part of the port side of the nose. We have some of the cockpit parts, but no seats, control column, rudder pedals or throttle box – so still a long way to go there. Last year we found some significant remains of the nose turret so, added to what we already had, about 70% of that is now in storage. As I’m sure you know, Whitley parts are very hard to find! Any suggestions of where we might find the missing Wellington or Whitley parts are always appreciated.
Powerandpassion – From memory, I think we found 2 pieces of steel structure from J9590, plus the odd bracket. The most recognisable part is the prop boss, with the slots for the Hucks starter. Talking of rusty bits of long-extinct aeroplanes, I think we still have a box of the mortal remains of an Armstrong Whitworth Atlas. Again, not enough to form a proper project, but useful clues on how a specific aeroplane was built. It’s possible to glean quite a lot of information from contemporary patents and journals of course, but scraps of structure are invaluable. In the same vein we have the remains of a Vickers front gun position from one of the first production Wellingtons. Can’t be many of those around. It doesn’t have a Midlands connection, but just had to be saved. In principle, we could start an Avro 504J project, as we have the right engine for it, plus the gravity fed fuel tank. It would be more practical to try to acquire a film prop or similar and put the real parts on it though, so if anyone’s heard of one of those looking for a home, we’d be interested.
Having listed that lot and no doubt whetted a few appetites, I think we can all look forward to the day when this collection goes on public display. It will be a very long time before any of these projects could be called finished, but they should be fascinating to see as work-in-progress.
Mark EvansF/Lt Borthwick-Clarke is mentioned briefly in Jeffrey Quill’s autobiography “Spitfire – a test pilot’s story” (Arrow Books 1985), which is well worth a read. Quill had only recently qualified as a pilot when he was posted to 17 Sqn in 1932. It’s a long time since I read it, but I seem to remember him saying there was a rumour on the squadron that B-C was nervous of formation flying, as a result of the collision. Quill and another young pilot tried to get the better of him by going into an unusually tight formation on his machine. He got his own back by keeping them in that position for a circuit and landing. Needless to say they were seriously frightened and didn’t do it again. I think he also describes the squadron using coloured streamers on their aircraft for formation flying.
There aren’t enough remains of J9590 to give an ID to a project I’m afraid. Hopefully it will make a nice display board in a local museum one day.
Mark EvansHi Paul,
Midland Aircraft Recovery Group is still alive and well. We managed to locate the site of one of the Bulldogs and later identified it as J9590 from a photograph in the local paper. The other went into a spin, so I don’t think it penetrated the ground. J9590 had made a hole about 4 feet deep in soft ground right next to where there had been a small stream at the time. It’s engine and of course the wreckage on the surface had been recovered at the time. The propeller boss and the remains of the prop were still in situ 4 feet down. The recovery crew had apparently tossed a few small items back into the hole when it was filled, so we found a collection of small items, including a few cockpit parts, fabric and the remains of an accumulator marked 17 Squadron. All the recovered items have been carefully stored since 1986, with the aim of displaying them when we open a museum.
Kyle was flying J9590. Presumably Borthwick-Clarke got to choose the newer aircraft. I found some anecdotes about Borthwick-Clarke and his formation flying in a book and got a few reminiscences from Kyle himself in the late 80s. I haven’t seen the photo(s) you mention – would you be able to send some copies please?
Mark EvansMidland Aircraft Recovery Group has a small collection of artefacts from the late George Morley’s family. The bulk of the collection was dispersed after he died and I think at least some of it went to the Fleet Air Arm Museum. The British Aviation Archaeological Council has details of some of the group’s digs. PM me for more details.
Mark EvansThanks Mike. The frame doesn’t have any numbers on it unfortunately. It’s 27 3/4 inches tall.
Mark EvansMore Frazer Nash turrets
Another couple of FN turrets in the UK to add to the list:
FN.5 Wellington nose (recovered, complete with cupola, with wreckage of Z1206 on the Isle of Lewis in 2002)
FN.4 Whitley tail turret (incomplete, without cupola, but has the bottom of the Whitley tail with it)
Both with Midland Aircraft Recovery Group.
We also have a cupola for our Oxford (AW.38) and a few bits of FN.16. If anyone can help us find parts for the FN.16 Whitley nose or AW.38, please PM me. We’re struggling with these!
Frazer Nash drawings have been mentioned. We’ve looked, failed to find any and ended up doing our own 3D CAD model of the FN.5. This will eventually allow us to run off drawings. We’re considering casting some new turret parts and will certainly be laser cutting new FN.5 components, so if anyone has a need of parts or drawings, please PM me.
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