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moon_light

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  • in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2288420
    moon_light
    Participant

    AWACS have more internal space for people and fuel tanks. Not necessary means more power. for smaller AWACS like ERIEYE, E-2, Wedgetail etc It is the smaller AWACS with there slower speed, low altitude and less radar power that are most vulnerable.
    why you keep insisting that they dont have to test Gripen for maximum range of Meteor?.
    harder to lock on lower is when your cruising at tree top. which is not case with AWACS.

    +AWACs even the small one will have more internal space for electric equipment, power than su-35 ( their engine is in the wing , contrast to su-35 )
    +AWACs are not that vunerable , they have high power radar => detect enemy from very long range => escort fighter will take care of enemy
    + about the meteor => re-read several pages ago and you know why i said that
    + i was just explain that flying higher doesnot make it harder for radar to lock

    All strike aircrafts can carry heavy loads but it does not mean they have Flanker like performance with most powerfull engines in 4.5 generation fighter and most internal fuel. and sleek design that is atleast half to One generation ahead of Rafale. Any thing you attached to Rafale showup as external bulge.

    su-35 is also bigger , heavier , RVV-BD is 2 times heavier , bigger than most AAM

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2288429
    moon_light
    Participant

    Lol!
    Its claims the B-1B has a RCS of 1 m2

    And Then we have Su-35S RCS of 10 m2

    Right, goes to show how total crap these sources really are.:rolleyes:

    B-1B have reduced RCS design ( engine block ..etc ) , B-1A by contrast have very big RCS ( 100 m2 or sth like that )

    in reply to: Time on afterburner #2288473
    moon_light
    Participant

    btw what is fuel fraction :confused:

    in reply to: Time on afterburner #2288476
    moon_light
    Participant

    if even something as small as the gripen can use afterburner with only internal fuel for 10 minute , how long can something like F-15E or F-35 use afterburner ( they carry like 2-3 times the amount of internal fuel :eek::eek::eek:)

    in reply to: Time on afterburner #2288497
    moon_light
    Participant

    Viggen = Almost 7 minutes 😎
    Gripen C = 9,53 minutes in full AB at sea level on internal fuel.
    Gripen E = ~11 min in full AB at sea level on internal fuel.

    Gripen is based on Topspeeds numbers for F18C with 495 kg/min/2=247,5kg/min and the Gripen engine is slightly more powerful (1,6% officially) so it should land at ~251kg/min.

    With the same increase in the F414G (22%) it should burn around 305,5kg/min giving the E version 3360kg fuel/305,5 = 11 min in full AB at sea level on internal fuel or 13,4 min at 80,5 KN.

    Internal fuel Gripen C 2400kg –> 9,53 minutes in full AB at sea level on internal fuel.

    for a small aircraft like gripen this is quite impress 😀

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2288500
    moon_light
    Participant

    You really believe this stuff?
    Rafale is not a stealth fighter (the radar cross-section of the F-117 has been estimated at between 10cm² and 100cm²), especially with external weapons/EFT and where did you get 10m2 for Su-35S?

    http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Radar/Radar_Targets.htm

    in reply to: Time on afterburner #2288507
    moon_light
    Participant

    Right not only would you burn all the fuel, but also the engine.

    you mean like the same situation with the mig-25 engine :confused:

    in reply to: Time on afterburner #2288510
    moon_light
    Participant

    Fuel flow depends HEAVILY on speed and altitude. Take F-16 with 7000 pounds of fuel.

    For example an F-16 blk50 flying an MIL power will consume 17000 lb/h at M0,9 and Sea Level.

    Yet very same F-16 blk50 flying at MAX AB power will consume only 4000 lb/h at M0,6 and 60k feet. (less than 25% of the previous dry thrust condition)

    On max consumption F-16 blk50 flying at MAX AB will consume 96000lb/h at M1,3 and Sea Level.

    Lowest possible consumption at max MIL power is 1000 lb/h at M0,6 and 60k feet.

    If you are looking for max possible time, 1 hours 45 minutes for little F-16 which will not take you anywhere. However minimum time is somewhat useful for a S/L dogfight that is 4 minutes 22 seconds.

    how come it the f-16 have higher speed at lower altitude and lower thrust :confused:
    btw why the speed , altitude affect fuel consumption if it on max afterburner

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2288519
    moon_light
    Participant

    Supersonic flight is limited by the G load of the fighters, at 9Gs at 30k feet @ M1.5 translate to 11.07 deg/s turn rate. Obviously too low, however pulling 9Gs at these circumstances deplate energy fairly quickly, around -1500 FPS specific excess power, and if fighter needs to avoid a missile, it can always perform a high yoyo to trade airspeed for altitude, pull tighter instantenious turns, and dive to regain energy.

    On the other hand flying high and fast is a must in BVR combat if you want to a) give your missiles better boost b) maintain a clear LOS c) maintain a good energy state for evading maneuvers or for merge.

    AIM-120 is said to acquire its target at 19 km away;

    9B-1348E seeker head on R-77 acquires targets at 15 km.
    9B-1101K seeker head on R-27RE acquires targets at 25 km.
    9B-1103M seeker head on R-27AE acquires targets at 20 km.

    If their rated targets is the same -that is a very big if I must admit- R-27 variants are still comperable in terms of target acquisition range. However they are rated for targets pulling up to 8Gs.

    **********

    Whatever the missile’s capabilities are, an opponent will still have to break lock and waste its energy to make evasive maneuvers. In any scenario that max range really matters, most (if not all) BVR missiles would be expanded long before their effectiveness become a question.

    For example lets assume Su-35 carries R-27R (not RE) variant. It has 75 km max range and according to Su-27 manual it has
    42.5 km head-on and 7.5 km tail-on effective attack range. From these values, we can calculate;
    25 km effective range that is running perpendicular to launching aircraft

    Meteor has a big 25 km range advantage over R-27R so i will estimate (pull some numbers from my a**) just for the sake of argument;
    100 km max range
    60 km head on max range
    35 km running perpendicular effective range
    10 km tail-on effective range

    On the first part of the BVR only range matters. Pilot would know he could be hit if he doesn’t evade, and seeker capabilities are irrelevant here.

    -from 100 to 75 km distance, Meteor can be fired and will reach Su-35 but only disturb it, and wont be effective.
    -from 75km to 60 km distance, both missiles can be fired and force their enemies to make evasive maneuvers, but wont be effective.
    -Meteor can be fired at 60 km, but will be countered by Su-35 simply changing approach angle, same goes for Rafale after 42.5 km.

    Until 35 km, each missile would only force enemy to disadvantegous position but would not kill. Huge range advantage (also equals higher kinematic advantage in less than max range shoots) of Meteor on this scenario would put Su-35 in a less favourable position (as it would be more difficult to evade more energetic Meteor missiles) This is a position where Su-35 pilot should know he is in danger and break off while he can.

    At this point, with both aircraft approaching at ~1 km per second there is a little superior range and kinematics can do, and all it matters is type and effectiveness of seeker heads.

    After 35 km, Su-35 requires to make 90+ deg turns from the target and would need to break its target lock. By now, Su-35 pilot has lost its SA and the ability to fire back because it needs to illuminate target to guide SARH missiles, and cant do so while evading incoming missiles. In this scenario combat should over if a missile manages to hit Su-35, or Rafale will merge in a extremely superior energy state and finish with Magic IIs or gun.

    If Su-35 also had fire and forget ARH or IR missiles, he would have forced Rafale pilot to lose his SA, and chances would be more or less equal, with Su-35 having wasted more energy to defeating Meteor missiles.

    My point is, 10-20 km range advantage of any BVR missile is not a key factor in its effectiveness, as they will be fired only to be wasted on their extreme ranges. And my second point is R-27RE can do the same job in this case. So a mixed payload of R-27RE/AE, R-77, R-73 would equal Meteor and Magic combination in most of the real life circumstances.

    i think that for the same class of missiles => longer max range = longer NEZ ( most of the time ) , btw meteor max range is 160 km not 100 km ( even in normal source meteor always rated as having range > 100 km )
    in my opinion ramjet missiles have much better terminal , cruise speed , but they seem to be easier to be detected by IRST than normal missiles

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2288541
    moon_light
    Participant

    Comparing Meteor with R-37 (or RVV-BD) is non-sense IMHO. Despite the Ramjet engine, Meteor is rated at 100+ km range and R-37 missile is rated at 400km. Obviously latter is bigger and more draggy, just as AIM-120 is more draggy than AIM-9.

    Irbis/R-37 combination will outrange RBE-2/Meteor combination irrelevant of the miniature RCS differences on a two non-stealthy fighters. For the sake of argument, lets assume for a second Su-35/Irbis combo is inferior to RBE-2/Rafale, and assume EW on Su-35 could not detect the LPI mode of RBE-2. What would happen? As soon as RBE-2 enters STT it will have to give up LPI mode and focus on target to get vector data, and be detected to EW on Su-35. If that happens 90km, Meteor would barely reach Su-35 and most likely be evaded, but 90 km is likely to be within NEZ of R-37. If Rafale pilot waits to force Su-35 into NEZ, it would be detected by Irbis and Rafale would be already R-37’s NEZ.

    in a couple of page before there was confirm that meteor max range is 160 km ( btw meteor is basically r-77m design and that missiles also rated for 160 km )

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2288977
    moon_light
    Participant

    btw i just realise that only mig-31 ( or may be t-50 ) will be able to carry RVV-BD

    in reply to: Time on afterburner #2289004
    moon_light
    Participant

    C model F-18 burns 495 kilos per minute at sea level. Mirage 2000 about 390 kg /min.

    you mean at max afterburner ? , btw are they burn the same amount of fuel at sea level than at high altitude or the same ( i mean at full afterburner )

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2289007
    moon_light
    Participant

    what these AWACS have to do with Gripen. did Gripen used them in Meteor tests?. These AWACS will fly lower than Flanker. and Flanker engine power outperforms Wedgetail engine

    1- in real war situation AWACs can give information to gripen to launch meteor
    2- i dont know whether AWACs was in the test or not but as explained before they dont have to test the max range of missiles from the gripen
    3- meteor can be carry by EF-2000 , gripen , rafale , f-35 so the limited range of gripen radar now doesnot mean meteor range is limited as well
    4- gripen will also have long range AESA radar in future
    5- the fact that AWACs fly lower than Flanker has nothing to do here , explained before ,it only harder to lock if enemy fly lower and that is due to ground clutter , also AWACs dont launch missiles themselves so their altitude different here doesnot really mean anything
    6-su-35 engine doesnot out perform Wedgetail engine ,in dry mode it produce lower thrust , it only produce more thrust in afterburner mode ( Wedgetail engine dont have that mode as it dont need it )
    7-AWACs have much more internal space for power , electric equipment

    These AWACS dont carrying external pods.

    compared the size of E-3 , Kj-2000 , Wedgetail , A-50 , E-2 and the su-35 and you will see which one have more space for equipment , power ..etc , not to mention for AWACs their engine is on the wing so they have even more space internally for equipment

    Su-35 can launch 6 Kh-31 720kg each. and 4 R-77. so hardly any problem for 5 RVV-BD.

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=impressive+weapon+load you can see a lot of aircraft carry heavy load from F-16 to f-15 to ef-2000 ..etc ,ABLE TO CARRY HEAVY LOAD doesnot mean your performace will not decrease with small load

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2289143
    moon_light
    Participant

    In that very case size matters. A bigger fighter like a Su-35 suffers less in flight performance from an external load of 2 tons f.e. compared to a Rafale with the same load. With a typical AAM-load of less than one ton in total the difference is no longer felt in a noticable way.

    rvv-bd is much heavier ( more than twice the weight ) and also more drag than meteor , mica

    in reply to: Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) #2290237
    moon_light
    Participant

    Yep, and that hurdle must F-22 also overcome with its radar.

    And for those flying at medium altitude, well they can look up and detect without any ground(background) klutter.

    But then its the Missile NEZ penalty all over again.. the missiles have to climb up and chase after the Foxhound. Not a good situation for starters..
    Remember there is no free lunch in this game.

    Edit:
    The survivebility of Mig-31 increases with its altitude. The higher the better.

    in head on situation , the high speed ,and low maneuver of mig-31 is actually increase the enemy missiles engagement envelop , but yeah it does help when running away

Viewing 15 posts - 391 through 405 (of 913 total)