Modern flairs, like BOL, are still pretty effective as has been demonstrated in trials vs heat seeking missiles in 2008/2009. IIRC the result was 12 missiles fired and all foiled by the flairs.

not against IIR missiles like Aim-9x or EO missiles like Python 5 , and sure not against radar guide missiles like Meteor , Cuda , aim-120D

DIRCM, is that like a modern version of Shtora? What happened for AT-missiles was that they changed the dynamic range to ignore the flashes and now the russian tanks have no Shtora and use smoke + Arena instead.

very different , shtora jamming is stationary while the DIRCM on fighter use a turret

it also not cover 360 degree
not to mention anti tank use can use variety of guide even by wire
Shtora not affect IR , MMW guider
..etc

One system has been proven to work and that is (for the time being) modern dispensable countermeasures. Just think about it, each dispenser (BOL) holds 160 flairs (and each jet has 6 + 4) that get dispersed via the vortexes. Lets just say that 200 get released. How does your missile keep track of the target that does a split S behind the burning objects that move in the same direction? And once the target gets found again, what G tolerances and speeds will the missile have to endure?

IIR missiles can basically see the shape of target
EO , radar missiles not affected by flares from BOL ( chaff is quite useless now )

So you have to be close enough and at high enough altitude to make sure the target doesnt find cover from the APG81.

not very high , just medium altitude is enough , and if you want to fly very low to use mountain as cover it affected both your cruise speed and missiles range too

Exactly. But the F22 and T50 can go to guns or bail out from the situation while the F35 sits there.

in WVR many vs many situation if you want to use gun then tactic is much more important than how agile the aircraft is ( hell cat vs Zero )

As demonstrated in the 70s HMDS and wide angle seekers help out a lot, but if you want to hit someone behind your missiles will bleed energy + the enemy will engage you first.

the point is F-16 have better sustain turn and T/W than Mig-29 but mig-29 with HMD and old R-73 ( have limited FoV , can be foil by flares ) did kill F-16 like they were WW2 plane

the F-16s did score some kills eventually, but only after taking 18 ‘Archers’.

http://www.16va.be/mig-29_experience.htm
and dont forget that F-16 is a very agile plane

The problem is that the missile seeker is small and easier to jam. That means you need to get closer to the enemy to make sure you get the kill. If you get closer you will be in range as well.

still better than gun

I say it again. Missiles are not the silver bullets here. Good carrier kinematics can make a shorter range missile hit targets further away than a carrier with bad kinematics and better missiles. Saying that better missiles will make kinematic performance a thing of the past is assuming you will fight an enemy from the stone age.

not really depend what missiles do you use , and flying fast toward enemy also make their missiles easier to hit you ( that why supercruise benefit F-22 more than rafale , EF-2000 )
in WVR both aircraft will be in NEZ zone any way , and since they be in WVR dogfight both side will fly at mach 0.8-1.2 ( top speed and supercruise doesnot matter in WVR )

Well, the report stated that the F-16s managed to get in the merge ‘and’ kill the F-22s in WVR.

f-22 is even more agile than f-16 so that just prove that in WVR more agile aircraft dont always win but it also depend on tactic

There have been debates as to the viability of the fleet carrier due to increasing range of AShMs. Even former Secretary Gates acknowledged this and stated carriers were threatened with obsolesence due to increased vulnerability. http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/05/gates-takes-aim-at-navy-questions-carrier-fleet/

Hence F-35 doesn’t meet the requirements. To keep carriers out of harms way, you need long range aircraft.

Of course the F-35 guys aren’t going to say this. Neither is the US leadership going to say “hey we spent billions on a jet that doesn’t solve the problem of our carriers’ vulnerability.”

Not to mention that Chinese have apparently been working on anti-carrier Ballistic Missiles.

Bear in mind the USN’s total requirement for F-35 is 260 a/c (+80 for Marines) and the Navy has recently come out stating that orders might be cut.

If F-35 is a wunderwaffe one would think the Navy would be scrapping other programs to keep up F-35 numbers.

anti-carrier Ballistic Missiles is much much harder to create compared to CUDA 😉

TR1 is right, R-73/HMS combo is what prompted Germany to give up on ASRAAM
and develop Iris-t.

i dont really see the advantage of R-73 vs ASRAAM :rolleyes:

all western WVR missiles now have seeker with better FoV , have either IIR or EO seeker , they also able to perform 180 degree shot while R-73 can’t

The hottest of them all, the Iris-t can do this, (60G)
but only ~@5 sec after launch, and then only if it didn’t have to maneuver at all during that boost phase,
(what are the odds of that in a dogfight?) so that is at max achievable speed, and speed along with agility will drop off very rapidly after burnout, while the fighter will keep having thrust.
AMRAAM has a max achievable G of 30-35 G, also only in the very specific
circumstances as above, but @8 sec.

we dont know for sure their real ability 😎 in the future missiles will be even more agile while aircraft turning still be limited by human body
EX : A-darter can do 100 G http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-Darter
and at 1 , 2 km of WVR i dont see the short burn time is really big problem

1.Missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept – 10g x 5 = 50g. Short range HOBS missiles hasn’t got Pk=100% (proved by Israeli Air Forces quite recently).
2.Yes, but some concepts are more mature than the others. Only 4xAIM-120D internally will be operational with F-35 around 2018, and CUDA and Meteor rather not.
3.RVV-SD is probably in the same stage of introduction as AIM-120D if not better. In 2015 Su-35 will be operational with those missiles.
4.Poor speculation.

1. missiles dont follow exact same course the aircraft fly they intercept , the speed of missiles also affect their turn so that is really nonsense speculation in real life , btw trying to evade 1 missiles is different from evade 2, 3 missiles
2. the only problem with meteor now is that they dont have customers required cliped fin version at the moment ( no F-35 in service at the moment ) but they will be carried by F-35 block 5 any ways ( MBDA claim that included in update block 5 )
and LM claim there is plan to make F-35 to able to carry 6 AIM-120D internally in future ( dual rack ) ( not now because that not the most important thing at the moment )
3 .RVV-SD is basically a concept same stage as CUDA or Spear , only thing different is that they have a promote video but they all not even tested before ( may be Spear is little bit better because it basically a GBU-53/B with engine )
4 .i just make it simple so easier to understand

1. Prove me that. Please sources?
F-16 will drop EFT before go WVR, and than it has max 6AAMs + pylons. We don’t know how good F-35 will be in such a situation up to now.

then how can you make sure F-35 will be worse than F-16 :confused:

2. probably yes, but not in every occasion. Advanced F-16V will be able to evade some AMRAAM shot, especially in heavy jamming environment.
BVR is not panacea in every air combat engagement – for example in high mountain – fighter can fly in low level, and thus evade detecting by radar and much easier provoke WVR combat.

yeah but you dont have mountain every where , and in most situation F-35 will be better in BVR , even in WVR the chance of survive of both side will be pretty equal due to HOBS missiles , DAS , DIRCM

In many vs many engagement ( ex 40vs 40) – for sure many fighters survive BVR shot – so it is still a much place in air combat for visual fights.

pretty much never see this happened ( unless in WW3 :confused: ) and even if that was true if the F-35 managed to shotdown half of the F-16 from BVR then WVR will be in F-35 favor ( same as hell cat vs Zero in WVR many vs many situation tatic is more important )

3. We don’t know, but fighter with better performance probably will have the edge in WVR, even in HMD + HOBS missile era.

i dont think so , missiles turning 60-70 G vs aircraft can turn 9 G at max :rolleyes:

4. CUDA and internal Meteor is just concept. When entered service, F-35 will be able to use only 4 AMRAAM internally.

at the moment all weapon for F-35 is concept because the aircraft havenot been in service but in the future F-35 will be able to carry all these weapon
and part of plan for F-35 is to put 6 AMRAAM internally
Meteor is sure will be carry by f-35 ,no reason for MBDA to limit their customer ( not to mention UK will use F-35 themselves ) they even reveals clipped-fin Meteor for F-35 and say included as part of the fighter’s Block 5 upgrade package. http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/picture-mbda-reveals-clipped-fin-meteor-for-f-35-347416/
CUDA is a LM program improve F-35 strength , if the F-35 become better they can sell more F-35 => pretty sure they will make the CUDA become real

About Su-35S – it is design specially to counter some new types with lower RCS.
It has got Irbis, Atoll IRST, probably L-band AESA radar on the wings, advanced RWR and EW.
I don’t know how good it’ll be against F-35, but for sure Su-35 will be able to detects F-35 at BVR ranges. Remember that even with new AIM-120D – NEZ rather not exceed 30 miles range in F-35 cases ( EF-2000 couldn’t get closer than 20 miles to the Raptor + AIM-120C combo ).
From 30 miles range – both IRST + IRBIS + AESA L band radar + sensor fusion will probably give Su-35 firing solution with RVV-SD. I didn’t say that Su-35S will win BVR fights, but it has got a chance to fight BVR, survive up to WVR, with some AAMs ( Su-35S can take 12AAMs, and still has got great range only with internal fuel).
Against PAK FA the things will became even more difficult, as it is the F-22 counterpart.

RVV-SD is also a concept
F-35 can see su-35s from so long (300-350 km ) it have time to accelerate to top speed before launching missiles
with meteor the NEZ will be much longer ( 70-90 km ) , and missiles dont have to be fired in NEZ all the time to get a kill