I know where your going with your explanation by having 2 sources being 2 f-35s confuse the air to air missile. But these missiles have computers on them one example they give is in condition of enemy electronic countermeasures(like jamming) there is a fire and forget mode pretty much saying I will ignore the other source and just go for that source instead.
Fire and forget is the mode of any missile with terminal seeker. It do not mean what you said it does
You can insist on doing so but a missile is a missile and a warhead is a warhead. I assure you that a SRBM in the air in comparison to an F-22 will have a whole lot less surface to reflect from but thanks to stealth material absorption the F-22 was said to have a lower RCS.
Same 120 degrees, distance of tracking a low RCS target than using that distance to see how far the radar beam can stretch left to right. That radar view is something you would not want to be in regardless or it will track you however you
You have to remember that the missile is considered dual mode. The missile will rely on its own radar than as the next option use passive guidance to find the emitting source….Which is why I am repeating myself a bunch of times already to you is what distance does EO DAS see the missile 1st before the missile sees the F-35. If the F-35 does see the missile before the missile is able to either detect or track its location than sending a decoy with the proposed jamming will be able to fool the missile. If the missile is already in the range of detecting or tracking the F-35 1st before the F-35 can track it with EO DAS “than sends the decoy” the missile will more than likely ignore that decoy and focus intently what it detected or tracked on its radar
dual mode is a b!tch. However no one knows the actual RCS of the F-35 or if the missile is approaching the sides of the aircraft offering a high RCS return(thus an even farther tracking range than estimated 3.749kms). The missile will go after the non jamming F-35 “only” if its within the missiles own host radar capabilities of either detecting or tracking the F-35.
So whats the range of EO DAS? If the radar of the missile tracks the F-35 it will focus on the F-35, if the F-35 uses EW while the missile tracked it than it will use passive and active homing, if the radar of the missile tracks the F-35 and the F-35 releases a decoy to start jamming it will than just focus on the F-35 because the computer inside the missile is programmed to use fire and forget to just go after the F-35 because the F-35 made itself look very obvious to the missiles radar that it released a decoy and it will just ignore the decoy and go after the F-35………However if EO DAS has a farther detection and tracking range to quickly identify the missile and release the decoy before the missile is able to know its location than it will more than likely go after the decoy. But how far do these decoys go if released?
Do not get me wrong I am not doubting capabilities of the F-35 but there is not just enough information for me to draw a conclusion but I do know that the countermeasures for the F-35 are there if air to air missiles have approached it.
a) a missile isn’t a warhead but a whole SRBM do not have 0.0002 m2 radar reflection, SRBM is big and they don’t have the stealth shape or radar absorbing material.
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b) As long as jamming work, staying in or outside radar field of view is the same
c)unless DAS detection range is 100 meters, it will detect K-77M ,R-37 long before they can have a glim of F-35
c) the missile can’t continue to go after F-35 once the decoy actived because the noise level will be too high for the seeker to find a stealth target. I hate to repeat myself but missile seeker won’t detect 2 targets, the receiver will be overwhelmed, the noise level will be too high for it to detect the weak skin reflection of VLO fighter. If you are looking at an ant in the ground then someone shine a 1 million lumen high power industrial light at your eye, can you ignore the light an keep track of the ant?, that is the same case for the missile
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”
Mig-31 max R-37 load is 4″
I am talking about the K-77M. R-37 I am pretty sure is a long range air to air missiles not medium range.
I can bet my leg that your number for SRBM is for the reentry warhead instead of the whole missile so to count the length of the total SRBM length is misleading,”
Your losing a lot of limbs here.
https://aviationweek.com/technology/…tection-claims ” [LEFT][COLOR=#333333][FONT=Georgia][SIZE=15px]NNIRT says that the Chinese DF-15 short-range ballistic missile has a 0.002 m2 RCS in X-band, but is 0.6 m2 in VHF.” Notice that they are talking about the missile and no war heads.
There isn’t much in that generic claim, but I can assure you they are referring to the re entry warhead because that when the warhead is tracked.
thank to the much weaker skin return of F-35,” Which is why I have taken in account of a low RCS tracking range. I am using stealthflankers aesa calculator put 64 modules(me counting the modules on the k-77m) put 10 watts per power, elevation 16 degrees and azimuth 120 degrees(no one knows how wide the radar beam is but it is said to be wider than it its previous counterparts just using this as an estimation), put .0001m2 for target RCS. Leave the everything the way it is(stealth flanker explained to me why he left those as a common reference). The 90% probability of lock on is at a 3.749km range. since we want to solve for the size of the radar beam
http://www.1728.org/angsize.htm I put 120 degrees for the angle and from point a to b I put 3.749kms for distance the total size of the radar beam is 12.987kms. Keep in mind the lock on range can be a longer distance than 3.749kms. Most aircraft radars work at a 40% PAE(power added efficiency) going over would be maintenance issues or damage on the long run however since missiles are one time uses I am assuming more power could be added than 10 watts and they appear to be LTCC and have claimed these kinds of modules are being used on their warheads which help with heating issues.I am assuming that .0001m2 is the target reference for the front side of an F-35. And considering the tracking range the next topic would be speed. Assuming mach 4 speeds are going and mach 1 aircraft is flying straight at you the distance that will be covered for both sides(aircraft and missile) to meet each other would be 1.7/kms. Now I do not know if this is beyond your scope of knowledge since I do myself have the difficulty of fully understanding this but the next information we need is what is the range of EO DAS which I doubt sources of that can be found. Than next what is the jamming power of any of those decoys and we will see how much it would effect the detection and lock on range of the k-77m. BUT however the volume search of 50% detection probability is 6.038kms that the lock on is at 3.749kms jamming power of the decoys and an/apg-81 would have to be the same so no abnormalities like the aircraft radar having high jamming power than the decoy. Remember if the missiles own radar starts to notice a target popping out of the target it was detecting or tracking it might be programmed to still go after the original target which is why I am asking what range EO DAS is and if EO DAS is tracking the missile at farther ranges than the radar of the missiles(no one knows for sure) how fast is the F-35s reaction time to launch the decoy and what is the max jamming power of that small decoy and how can it further reduce the 90% tracking lock on and 50% probability detection range of the missile. I believe that stealthflanker and garrya can help with how far the host radar detection and tracking can be reduced with the jamming power being applied if they have the time and energy to do that.
Keep in mind with a launched decoy the host radar of the missile can see 2 targets depending how far or close it is. If the decoy is just jamming and the apg-81 is not jamming it might be programmed to go after the non-jamming F-35. If the F-35 starts jamming with the decoy than the F-35 still has a 50% chance of getting hit.
You only take into account the detection range without jamming and as someone who also used Stealthflanker calculator, the scan sector is not the size of the radar beam. What you found is the field of view of the radar rather than the beam size.
Nonetheless, your assessment of jamming is wrong, there is no requirement for APG-81 to be at the same level as the decoy because unless the kind of jamming used is a very simple amplify repeater such as on ALE-50 in that case the seeker see another target pop up and can be programmed to hit the first one. But with any other kind of jamming : barrage noise, RGPO, VGPO, Cross eye, cross polarization, cover pulse then the seeker of missile won’t be able to track the location of F-35, either the receiver will be overwhelmed with noise that it can’t see anything with low RCS or the lock will be break and missiles will miss because it was feed wrong range, velocity, angular information. I don’t have time or energy to go into detail for each kind of jamming, but you can pm garrys for link, he wrote a good piece on ECM.
If the decoy is jamming and F-35 is not jamming, the missile can’t be programmed to go after the non jamming F-35 because it can’t find the non jamming F-35. Have you try to find an ant in a dark room when someone else point a high lumen light at your face? that what happen to the missile, so it has 0% chance of hitting F-35 in that situation.
We know for sure that EODAS can track K-77M and R-37 from distance notably further than K-77M, R-37 can track F-35 with ECM. On one hand, you have an IIR system tracking Mach 5 missiles at high altitude aka bright target in low clutter, on the other hand, you have a tiny radar tracking a VLO target in high noise condition.
@moonlight ”
ALE-40″ heard there was only a total of 4 so what if there were more medium range air to air missiles chucked at it? What is the total of number of decoys for each?
Mig-31 max R-37 load is 4
F-35 can a total of 4 ALE-70 fiber optic towed decoys but RT-1489/ALE and Brite cloud can be loaded on conventional chaff – flare dispenser such as ALE-47 consequently F-35 can carry a few dozens at least.
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However even this is problematic. a SRBM from China the DF-15 has a .002m2 in X-band and the size of that missile is 9 meters and 1 meter in diameter. What do you think the RCS of a medium range air to air missile would be? I have no idea on the infrared range of EO DAS for the F-35 to be given a decent reaction time to react. but the missile using dual mode will realize on its own radar that a target popped out of nowhere from the target it was locking on. I am sure some embedded software program would make the missile focus on just that specific target. I already know that the distance to quickly launch a decoy solely relying on your radar would give a very limited time especially going against a mach 4 missile and your going mach 1-2 from the other direction.
Also looking at the size of those decoys I do not think their jamming power is as strong as the F-35. If the F-35 was to go jam the **** out of it I am sure the missile would be programmed to go after the higher power jamming source than the lower power jamming source on decoys. Lets say EO DAS sees the high infrared target going at mach 4. F-35 starts jamming the **** out of it, but they decoy offers less jamming power. it will go after the higher jamming source. Now the F-35 can utilize low power jamming similiar to the decoy. This might reduce the host radar missiles system by a little bit but the lockon range and width of the beam will still be significantly big and it would seem to be rather risky launching the decoy depending on how good the host radar missile is and how fast it is going the next determination would be the capabilities of the EO DAS range to quickly come up with a plan of action. Some air to air missiles offer the option of using infrared guidance.
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It isn’t problematic
I can bet my leg that your number for SRBM is for the reentry warhead instead of the whole missile so to count the length of the total SRBM length is misleading, and SRBM don’t include corner reflector due to massive fins such as one on R-37 or R-33 missiles. On top of that, R-37 at Mach 6 high altitude will be as bright as a Christmas tree so it will be detected and pilot still have time to sip his coffee.
These decoys don’t have the same jamming power as APG-81 and there is no need, thank to the much weaker skin return of F-35, a jammer 1000-10000 times weaker still enough to make R-37 seeker blind and unable to track it location. As i told you, the big gun such as APG-81 is unnecessary to jam R-37’s seeker and unless the pilot is mentally challenged he will switch of APG-81 jamming when ALE-70 in lure mode
@moonlight What do you think of lock on jamming capabilities being added? Dual mode is considered a thing knowadays on missiles.
Home on jam is pointless against ALE-70, RT-1489/ALE, MALD-X, BRITE CLOUD or any decoys because they are detached from fighter when operating
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Some calculations have suggested a track on to .0001m2 targets with estimated 2-3km ranges according to stealthflankers aesa calculator for power estimation for example of 64 modules and a 120 degree radar beam for a missile radar sensor. You will realize the width of the radar beam is actually more wider than the lock on 2-3km distance. Hence why according to the Russians the newest feature the S-500 has that is different from its previous air defenses is new warheads with radar lock on capabiliies.
I can bet my leg and arms that calculation don’t include any jamming, put ALE-70 or RT-1489/ALE in the calculation and your tracking range shrink to a dozen meters, no need for the big gun like APG-81, MALD. Burn through distance is proportional to square root of radar cross section, so if there is ECM then 0.0001 m2 target will be tracked at distance 109 times shorter than 1 m2 target.
Additional support comes from the fact that US military required the RCS reduction of the F-35 to be a 95% percent compared to 1st to 4th gen fighters (factor of 20, consistent with Russian estimations). Whether this is true or not, or tactical relevant or not or even compatible with Western practice of reporting min RCS values I don’t know, so please don’t kill the messenger!
To be precise, that is not a requirement from US military, but instead came from a document by Canadian government.
On top of that, the accurate wording is: “In an UNCLASSIFIED ILLUSTRATION of a stealth analysis, the F-35 had an approximately 95% percent improvement over first to fourth generations fighters-meaning a much smaller signature”
We do not know if that sentence mean a 95% improvement in detection range reduction due to much smaller signature? or a 95% improvement in exchange rate due to much smaller signature? the wording is vague and ambiguous and do not carry the same level of details and accuracy as data measured in anechoic chamber
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Sure, tell the inventors of PTD they don’t know a thing about radar scattering. I don’t have other chance than taking claims from both sides together with hard facts and actual events and try to make sense out of them to form my own opinion. Do you know better?
strawman argument?? i didn’t say the inventor of PTD don’t know a thing about radar scattering. Nontheless, if that your pov, it is also absurd to tell the manufacture of several stealth plane that they don’t know a thing about radar scattering. After all, i gave you raw scattering data measured in anechoic chamber, hard fact instead of statement.
Russians are keen on stand-off weapons. Russian UHF radars claim 200 km detection range for 0.1 sqm target, with enough precision to guide SAMs. They also refer RCS for Western designs that are in that order of magnitude (0.1 to 1 sqm). They claim they have solved the detection problem of quadcopters and other extremely small radar returns. I personally remain very sceptical of the ability of a VLO or Ultra VLO or whatever to penetrate IADS without going low level as it has been done always.The Western RCS values are also misleading IMO, even
true
F-22, F-35 RCS is smaller than 0.1 m2 by several order of magnitude,
F-117 without radar absorbing material can obtain approximately 0.01 m2 at 0.5Ghz.
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@ Moonlight- the F-35 cannot turn at 45* per second. At any speed, instantaneous turn, pitch, or yaw rate.
In the video podcast, captain Andrew Dojo Olson said he can turn 135* in 3 seconds, so i divided it up and get 45*
So cool, but I think you should add Russian missiles like R-37 and R-77 too
F-35 can turn 45 degrees/ second
Podcast: Behind The F-35s New Aerial Tricks
Aviation Week & Space Technology
Apr 03, 2019Since first flight of the original F-35 test aircraft more than 12 years ago, the U.S. military has given the public only one glimpse of the aircraft hotly contested dogfighting chops and that was nearly two years ago at the Paris Air Show. That changing this year. Defense Editor Steve Trimble talks with U.S. Air Force F-35 Demo Pilot Capt. Andrew Dojo Olson about the new displays public debut on March 30 in Melbourne, Florida.
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Did India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.
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Indias claim that one of its fighter pilots shot down a Pakistani F-16 fighter jet in an aerial battle between the two nuclear powers in February appears to be wrong. Two senior U.S. defense officials with direct knowledge of the situation told Foreign Policy that U.S. personnel recently counted Islamabads F-16s and found none missing.The findings directly contradict the account of Indian Air Force officials, who said that Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman managed to shoot down a Pakistani F-16 before his own plane was downed by a Pakistani missile.
It is possible that in the heat of combat, Varthaman, flying a vintage MiG-21 Bison, got a lock on the Pakistani F-16, fired, and genuinely believed he scored a hit. But the count, conducted by U.S. authorities on the ground in Pakistan, sheds doubt on New Delhis version of events, suggesting that Indian authorities may have misled the international community about what happened that day.
The news comes just days before the start of Indians general elections, in which Prime Minister Narendra Modi is seeking another term in office. In the weeks leading up to the election, tensions between India and Pakistan escalated to levels not seen in decades after a Pakistan-based militant group killed more than 40 Indian security officers in a Feb. 14 suicide bombing in India-controlled Kashmir. Both sides have been accused of spreading disinformation and fanning nationalistic flames.
Although the news likely wont sway Indian voters, Vipin Narang, an associate professor of political science at MIT, said the way the events have unfolded may affect Indians efforts to deter Pakistan in the future.
As details come out, it looks worse and worse for the Indians,Narang said. It looks increasingly like India failed to impose significant costs on Pakistan, but lost a plane and a helicopter of its own in the process.
The dogfight between the two nations occurred on Feb. 27, when India says a group of Pakistani jets entered its airspace in response to the first Indian air raid on Pakistani territory since a 1971 war. India scrambled its own jets and gave chase. During the aerial battle that ensued, Varthaman took a missile hit and ejected safely into Pakistani territory.
He was captured by the Pakistani army and released days later in an effort to de-escalate the crisis.
One of the senior U.S. defense officials with direct knowledge of the count said that Pakistan invited the United States to physically count its F-16 planes after the incident as part of an end-user agreement signed when the foreign military sale was finalized. Generally in such agreements, the United States requires the receiving country to allow U.S. officials to inspect the equipment regularly to ensure it is accounted for and protected.
Some of the aircraft were not immediately available for inspection due to the conflict, so it took U.S. personnel several weeks to account for all of the jets, the official said.
But now the count has been completed, and all aircraft were present and accounted for, the official said.
I heard it can use third stream for cooling, that will be useful against IR sensor, or help with future DEW
That look very peaceful
all of them have adaptative cycle using different systems. Kaveri being a special case, its third flux being used ot have a flat rate whatever speed or altitude.
can you explained further
What system do they use?