I don’t think so…
1. F-22A has special design TVC nozzles ( to reduce IR signature) and F-35 hasn’t got similar nozzle.
2.F-22A has supercruise capability unlike F-35.
3.Both has some IR topcoat.

1- f-34 nozzle do reduce IR http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article20.html
2-supercruise => higher speed => higher temperature head on

What BW was talking about is called Range Gate Pull-Off and you can find about it by doing a few move of google fu 🙂 .

it really different from what he was saying

Targets being tracked using range gates can attempt to employ a tactic known as range-gate pull off (RGPO) or range-gate stealing. The target uses a jammer to transmit the appropriate electromagnetic energy back to the tracking radar at the appropriate time and power level. Over the subsequent few pulses, the jammer progressively increases its transmitted power. This increased power is welcomed by the receiver circuitry and the receiver gain levels are progressively wound down to accommodate the increased received power. The receiver is, therefore, becoming increasingly de-sensitised to the real received energy. Once this process has continued for a short period of time, the receiver has become too insensitive to receive the real signal levels from the target alone. At this point, the target is said to have stolen or captured the range gates. Once the range gates have been stolen, the target can either switch the jamming off and force the radar to reacquire (taking valuable time) or the jammer can commence transmitting false returns at ever increasing (or decreasing) time intervals to the tracking radar in an attempt to “walk” the tracker away from the target. Either way, the target has successfully performed deception jamming of the tracking radar.

Barrage jamming cannot jam 2 or 3 aircraft using beam agile radars hoping their frequencies using very advanced pattern to reduce the propabilities of decoding. That’s the reason why they’re no longer going to be very effective in a sky where multiple AESA radars are flying. They may succeed in jamming one radar at a time, but since aircraft can link their sensors, the jamming will not only be detected pretty quick, it’ll be defeated as well.

here barrage jamming is different from base jamming both have different advantages , disadvantages ,and for noise jamming how many radar being jam is based on the cover arc of the jammer

Barrage jamming is the jamming of multiple frequencies at once by a single jammer. The advantage is that multiple frequencies can be jammed simultaneously; however, the jamming effect can be limited because this requires the jammer to spread its full power between these frequencies, as the number of frequencies covered increases the less effectively each is jammed.
Base jamming is a new type of Barrage Jamming where one radar is jammed effectively at its source at all frequencies. However, all other radars continue working normally.

As I’ve told you DRFM is a method of manipulating radio waves rather than just producing white noise all over the place. What you can do with it is rather limitless. Because creating decoys has been one of its application so far that we know about doesn’t mean that’s all it can do.

here read it , pretty much every main things of DRFM

Digital radio frequency memory, or DRFM jamming, or Repeater jamming is a repeater technique that manipulates received radar energy and retransmits it to change the return the radar sees. This technique can change the range the radar detects by changing the delay in transmission of pulses, the velocity the radar detects by changing the doppler shift of the transmitted signal, or the angle to the plane by using AM techniques to transmit into the sidelobes of the radar. DRFM jamming can create false targets behind the EW craft but not in front of it because the jamming signal must be timed after the received radar signal. By analysing received signal strength from side and backlobes and thus getting radar antennae radiation pattern false targets can be created to directions other than one where the jammer is coming from. If each radar pulse is uniquely coded it is not possible to create targets to directions other than the direction of the jammer

Well the F-35 isn’t the only aircraft with a good set of sensors/weapons for wvr engagements. I’ve got no problem if it has to use them for self defence, but to base your air defence on it? Especially given the fact that the new area of tension and of focus of the US and its allies are now Asia where a number of LO air superiority fighter are to operate in the future. I’m a sceptic.

what i mean is with these sensor , weapon f-35 will be better or equal to all other super agile aircrafts at WVR , and at BVR it have advantages as being stealth so overall it better

Another question. ASSUMING (not sure) that modern WF suits are unable to jam properly modern AESA LPI radars, couldnt they jam missile seekers? shooting first a useless missile therefore wouldnt be such a huge advantage would it?

jam 1 missiles is easy , jam 3-4 missiles at the same time is hard , not to mention Data link can be used for correction

Because with the money saved from buying the F35 they can afford those weapons in massive numbers!

Jokes aside though..

The expensive standoff missiles, like the KEPD 350, cost less than 0,5% of the costs for one single jet. So if we are going down the “use standoff weapons in the beginning” then any airforce with Swiss like rock hangars, classic Swedish roadbases or Russian gravel airfields could buy over 100 KEPD per jet while not paying a single cent more than the ones opting for the F35. Actually they would still save a few millions that could buy stuff like the CV90AAV or Pantsir S1 for protection of the airfields or helping them afford redundancy in the fleet.

But i thought this debate is already pretty old.

Numbers are from Canadian TCO (25-29bn$), SwAF 60 jet TCO and the regular Rafale vs Gripen costs of +30/50%.

KEPD 350 can’t attack moving target , not to mention you will not always have coordinate of all enemy SAM site , tank , ship by satellite , sometime you have to come close and find them by ESM , FLIR or radar so stealth + SDB II or brimstone is a better choice for SEAD , CAS with more flexibility , less mission planing

EM waves behave differently depending on the type of surfaces they enter into contact with, which is why 4.5+/5th gen are using shaping + RAM to lower their RCS. Refraction plays an important role here since the shapes and materials used will be selected to optimized its effect making DRFM’s work easier and more effective. If you add the possible global cancellation effect, then you may be able to lower your RCS quite a bit.

I wasn’t saying that the EM waves would be travelling back into the air slower, but because it took longer for the wave to go through the RAM which also absorb most of its magnitude, the object will appear smaller reducing the aircraft EM’s spikes.

I assume here that most of the main characteristics of the enemy’s radars are known and already inside the ESM library. Military intelligence agencies spend days, months, years collecting these kind of things using a variety of vectors. Space based assets are extremely valuable in such a thing, and I don’t know of any country that would go to war without having such data.
So when I talk about “calculating”, I’m talking about data that are available in the library. If you can “slow down” and dissipate most of the radar’s wave coming at you, then you should have enough time to “adapt” your ESM system and broadcast on the same frequency. You don’t need to match every bursts, only as much as possible.

See it that way. You stand on a field in darkness and using a torch (emitter) you use your eyes (reciever) to track someone running toward you in a unpredictable pattern. Your torch keeps dying on you at unpredictable intervals . How well and how far will you be able to use your eyeballs to predict the position of the person running toward you?

There are some references of refractive indices for different materials (the higher the number the slower light travels in it):

Vacuum 1.000000
Air 1.000293
Water 1.3330
Ice 1.31
Glass 1.5 – 1.75
NaCl 1.5
Cubic zirconia 2.1

Given the nature of composite materials in use today, and what I think I know about RAM (carbon based), I would put the refractive indice between 1.5 to 2.1 (speculation).

Again the desired effect isn’t invisibility. Rather it’s to get one similar to what happen when you place a pencil inside a glass of water.
1.You can use your ESM to create a EM field that will create a destructive interference (global cancellation).
2.You only need to be able to transmit in such a manner of creating a bubble around the aircraft. What you want to achieve depends on the mission profile.

ok let me say it this way
1- i already make example about RAM material before even if it slow down wave by 100 times and 1 meter thick it will not going to give your DRFM enough time to send fake signal in the same time that enemy’s radar signal bounces back , hence impossible to make enemy’s radar reject their own signal
2- destructive interference is extremely hard to create because wave have to meet the other at exact opposite stage , to create an EM field to achieve that you will be more likely to use noise jamming rather than DRFM , the purpose of DRFM is to create extra targets to confuse enemy radar , not to make your aircraft disappear , if you use noise jamming then it even worse than turning on alight in a dark room
3 – while EF-2000 , rafale be more agile , faster than f-35 these advantages are off set by Aim-132 , CUDA , Meteor , DAS , JHMCS ..etc
4 – RCS very useful in SEAD mission

Moon_light :

You should check again what RAM is and how it works . The properties of RAM are twofold : explain to us 😉

Cheers .

the speed of the wave only affected by a medium went it travel through that medium so actually the RAM doesn’t affect the speed of the wave , because the wave been trap not coming back , the wave not get trap will coming back not really going through RAM

and you should be the one who explain about
1- the imagination DRFM that can make enemy reject their own signal
2- the imagination RAM that slow down wave by 1000000 times ????
both havenot got any link support , or clear logical explanation
and to be honest if you really think about it then you will see the illogical in it ,
remember radar calculate distance by measuring the time that wave going and travel back and then multiply that number with speed of light , if there is really a kind of RAM like you have describe then simply putting them on any vehicle will make that vehicle invincible against radar 🙂 why ? because the delay of the wave caused by that kind of RAM will make target at 5 km appear like they are 1000000 km away

Sign :

No , obviously not . We should also look at the inside (empty , honey comb , fuel , etc) .

Rafale ‘s tail is mostly full of fuel which is known to absorb radio waves .

Cheers .

it have sensor on the top of the tail => obviously need wire for that , and you also need sth to control the flap

First , an aircraft with a top of the range RWR (capable of -90dBmi or better) is going to detect a LPI signal way before to be detected . Keep it in mind , it is important . That means two things : 1) the aircraft has some time to decide what to do (change course , prepare an electronic response , etc)

iam not saying the LPI can’t be detected , but they will be treated as noise

Because you don ‘t know what Digital Radio Frequency Memory is . DRFM allows some part of the signal (or all of it) to be manipulated to fool the adverse radar into thinking wrong about various parameters like , size , range , velocity , position , etc … It can also change the “signature” of the LPI signal which forces the LPI radar not to recognize its own signal .

the line in bold is wrong as already been explained

No . There is something you don ‘t know so let me ask you this : do you think that the electromagnetic waves are bouncing immediatly when they hit RAM ?
Answer : no .
In fact , the time it takes for the waves to travel through RAM (and to escape it) (few milliseconds , depending on the RAM) then to bounce back is enough for a top of the range ECM suite to respond “in real time” .

i already explain it , even if the RAM is 1 meter thick , and can slow down the radio wave by 100 times ( not to mention that you could not even slow down the wave that much ) the wave according to calculation still it only take 1/10000 of a milli second to enter and go out the RAM layer 😉 yeah , tell me that very long time

as A millisecond (from milli- and second; abbreviation: ms) is a thousandth (1/1,000) of a second

( read post #616 )
and not to mention that you cannot put RAM every where , how about the missiles that rafale carry outside , how about the radar nose , how about the FSO ( irst ) ..etc

Wrong .

Btw , the Rafale ‘s tail is mostly made of radar transparent material and its RCS is minimal .

Cheers .

transparent material is not exactly the good way to reduce RCS 😉 , why ? because the tail have wire , electric equipment , sensor inside it , they are not transparent material and will reflect radar signal even stronger