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moon_light

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Viewing 15 posts - 691 through 705 (of 913 total)
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  • in reply to: Stealth fighter vs stealth ship #2254281
    moon_light
    Participant

    No. It detects a thermal gradient on its own. That is all the S & T parts do. If you want to relate those to something of interest you need to know which particular contacts to close for higher resolution imagery.

    I’ve seen the Sniper XR demos…F16’s identifiable from 15 miles or thereabouts nothing really special?. Can you provide some provenance for target ident through Sniper or EOTS at 150km?

    ESM see earlier comment of ‘doing something dumb’ or deliberate. If you are reliant on the other side telling you where he is dont be surprised if he lies to you.

    Nope. This goes…

    (1) plane tries to find ship by ESM and gets nowhere…
    (2) plane uses optronics and shuffles back and forth trying to pick out the ship he wants from those he doesnt…
    (3) plane goes back to base for more fuel and a spot of crew rest because it has no real persistence…you need a ship for that!
    (4) another plane comes out and repeats step two because all the boats have moved when no-one was watching.
    (5) the ship notices an aircraft flying a non-commercial profile on nav radar or IRSTS and evaluates as a potential hostile.

    There is also a reason why, even quite recently, they’ve not always been very good at it!. 🙂

    here the pic taken by ATFLIR ( almost identical to sniper-XR )from 70 km
    http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/ELEC_ATFLIR_Imagery_lg.jpg
    i think with this kind of resolution detect a normal ship would not be a problem
    not sure how good it is against ship with IR treatment :confused:
    btw Irstshow target on screen just like radar , to ID u can zoom in to see the picture of each targets by EO sensor
    Example the FSO system on rafale ( EOTS + DAS on F-35 do basiclly the same thing )
    http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r279/sampaix/Thales-Doc-OSF.jpg
    the left is screen showing target being detected and track by IRST , on the right is the image of target being zoom in

    in reply to: Stealth fighter vs stealth ship #2254464
    moon_light
    Participant

    So far these systems have been mostly developped for AtA applications. I’m not aware of the Typhoon being currently operable for sea assault… and tbh I doubt such a system would be useful unless coupled to the radar…

    EDIT: Also there is a big difference between tracking a SpaceX’s Falcon 9 launch vehicle (quite big and bright lol) and tracking a Aster 30 or a stealth corvette…

    yeah there is a big difference between tracking a SpaceX’s Falcon 9 launch vehicle and tracking a Aster 30 or a stealth corvette but my point is it can do it automatically , the different would be in range but if it can track Falcon 9 from 1300 km then even if the range against stealth corvette is only 10% of that it still quite impress

    in reply to: Stealth fighter vs stealth ship #2254473
    moon_light
    Participant

    Correct me if i’m wrong but isn’t Pirates FOV somewhat obscured by the location its positioned on the airframe? To my eye it looks far from ideal for scanning for ground/maritime targets.

    http://www.thalesgroup.com/uploadedImages/Countries/United_Kingdom/Air_Group/Products/PIRATE-on-Typhoon-close.jpg

    no my point is IRST and FLIR system on aircraft automatic search and track for targets rather than having the pilots finding the target himself , it work a little bit like radar rather than just binoculars

    example : the DAS can finds the target itself rather than being cue by other sensor
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZrvAFRhQZc
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF29GBSpRF4

    in reply to: Stealth fighter vs stealth ship #2254477
    moon_light
    Participant

    Tracking is not searching. And making something invisible to IR sensors is not enough, we are entering the time of weapons using more than one sensor. For example matching IR and imaging (UV or normal light) is nearly trivial today.

    IRST stand for infrared search and track so i think it can automatic serching as well 😀 , btw i haven’t hear about optic sensor on fighter that use UV , can u show me some caused it sound quite strange

    in reply to: Stealth fighter vs stealth ship #2254559
    moon_light
    Participant

    Of course. Its sensor works with 0.01K sensitivity. Says nothing about the detection range, though.. Let alone target recognition, which is a completely different problem.

    is it possible to use system like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pftna34TbJU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdHEcomIj-E
    to make object completely invisible to IR sensor of missiles like NSM or Agm-119

    btw IRST can track air target automatically so i see no problem for EOTS and DAS to track ground targets

    in reply to: Stealth fighter vs stealth ship #2254562
    moon_light
    Participant

    Sanem,

    OK…which of the hundreds of contacts on that AIS capture do you put your optical sensor on first?. How about the hundreds more not shown there as they werent using AIS?. How close does your stealthy platform need to be to get the EO resolution to determine wolf/sheep?.

    Given a ship all alone on the water and an aerial/orbital sensor that has already been told where to look then yes, you are quite right, but operationally such a contrived situation is unthinkable.

    i think IRST system on aircraft can auto tracking just like radar are’t they
    EX : pirate irst on EF-2000 can track over 200 targets

    in reply to: Stealth fighter vs stealth ship #2254776
    moon_light
    Participant

    What if the fighter carries a missile with long range which it can fire and leave well before entering the ship’s Missile range.

    Well missile like Harpoon can be launched in Bearing only mode then the missiles can find target for itself , the aircraft dont even need to know the range to target , however it still need to know that the target is there which is quite hard

    in reply to: Stealth fighter vs stealth ship #2255126
    moon_light
    Participant

    “Stealth ship vs stealth fighter” comparison is way too generalised. If you take Fridjof Nansen for example, the ship has no point defense, only 8 surface to air missiles and two fire control radars to guide them.

    Theoratically, a pair of (non-stealthy) F-18Es, both carrying 4x harpoons and a jammer pod, can sink it without much difficulty, and live to tell about it.

    this ship have 32 ESSM missiles along with CIWS and it’s SPY-1 radar far more powerful than any fighter or even AWACs’s radar

    in reply to: Stealth fighter vs stealth ship #2255129
    moon_light
    Participant

    More powerful radar means easier to detect with ESM and the FLIR in the plane will detect the ship long before an IRST on the ship could see the plane.

    not really caused we have lpi radar , quite hard to detect by ESM and the ESM on the ship also tend to be more robust too
    while ship may have bigger IR signature they are easier treated by paint or system like this
    http://www.defensereview.com/1_31_2004/Intermat%20Anti-IR%20Paint%20M113%20APC%20Application_3.jpg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pftna34TbJU
    by contrast making aircraft stealth in IR almost impossible due to friction heating

    last but not least sea clutter play an important role too

    The Visby claims to be undetectable by electronic means eight miles away in a rough sea

    http://www.brighthubengineering.com/naval-architecture/31717-stealth-ships-can-a-ship-become-invisible/

    in reply to: Stealth fighter vs stealth ship #2255206
    moon_light
    Participant

    Stealthy ship has a very much lower RCS than any aircraft.

    http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1892/demotivationalposterssu.jpg

    ….clue is in the photo.

    😉

    ok except submarine 😀

    in reply to: Stealth fighter vs stealth ship #2255208
    moon_light
    Participant

    Any non-stealthy fighter jet is stealthier than any stealthy ship, has this query solved?

    but ship have much more powerful sensor and have advantages from sea clutter

    in reply to: F35 News only thread for 2013 #2257258
    moon_light
    Participant

    A fighter that has excellent supersonic maneuvering capability (eg Typhoon or F-22) has a tremendous advantage when it comes to out maneuvering inbound BVR missile shots.

    Edit – Have seen Tu22m’s reminder post and he’s right so last post on this from me.

    may be in the past , now with stealth and missiles like meteor this doesnot really matter much ( caused both aircraft are well inside NEZ )

    in reply to: Is American aviation going downhill? #2257261
    moon_light
    Participant

    @ff1987;
    While I think a pilots comments of his own aircraft is valuable, I think it gets very idiotic when comparison with other aircraft begins. Same goes for x beat y incidents. For example, if we take pilot claims and incidents as fact:
    a)
    -Accoding to USAF pilots, F-16 is better dogfighter than F-18 and F-15.
    -According to VVS pilots, Su-27 has better maneuverability than MiG-29.
    -According to one USAF pilot MiG-29 cannot do most maneuvers F-18 does easily.
    -Two Israeli F-15s downed equally numerous MiG-29s in close air combat.
    Conclusion: Su-27>F-16>F-18>F-15>MiG-29

    b)
    -German MiG-29s consistently defeated F-16 and F-18.
    -An USAF colonel claims F-15 and F-22 is better than Su-30MKI.
    Conclusion: F-22>MiG-29>F-16>F-18>F-15>Su-27

    c)
    -Eurofighter pilot claims MKI had better maneuverability than they had but EF is sustains turns better than F-22.
    -Ethiopian Su-27s consistently defeated Eritian MiG-29s without losses.
    -Su-30MK pilots claim its better than F-15/16.
    -Bulgarian MiG-29s defeated HMS equipped F-16 with R-60 missiles and without HMS.
    Conclusion: Su-27>Eurofigher>F-22>MiG-29>F-16>F-15

    If we try to merge these three, it will only conclude pilot’s comparisons are pretty much nonsense.

    Also, same subjective plus/minus appear in different habits of the pilots with their respective airforces. For example, western pilots on Su-27 will hate its center stick, ergonomics and will find difficult to use. On the other hand russians tried side stick, no one liked it and they reverted back to center stick. And I havent seen a Russian pilot complaining about the difficulty of using his radar or anything.

    In a sense, manufacturer of Eurofighter undisclosed some numeric performance data, which we can compare to other aircraft we know. Do you ask drivers opinion about cars’ acceleration if you knew both cars’ 0-100, 0-160, 0-200, 400m and 1000m times?

    200kts to 680kts acceleration: Eurofighter = 30 seconds, F-16 blk50 = ~30 seconds, which looks equal to my eye.

    TsAgi data says Su-27 can accelerate from 600 to 1100 km/h in 15 seconds.
    If I interpolate F-16 flight manual data for same speeds, F-16 takes 15,74 seconds. By merging these two independent comparisons am I wrong to conclude in terms of acceleration Su-27 is better than Eurofighter?

    dogfight also depend alot on pilot skill and tactic so quite hard to compared

    in reply to: F35 News only thread for 2013 #2257270
    moon_light
    Participant

    http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=P…topic&p=168581

    The article has much wrong information:

    “If F-16Cs and MiG-29s face off in aerial combat, both would detect each other on the radar at comparable range. Armed with the AIM-120 AMRAAM, the F-16s would have the first shot opportunity at more than twice the range as the Fulcrums. A single F-16 would be able to discriminately target individual and multiple Fulcrums. The MiG-29’s radar will not allow this. If there is more than one F-16 in a formation, a Fulcrum pilot would not know exactly which F-16 the radar had locked and he can engage only one F-16 at a time. A Viper pilot can launch AMRAAMS against multiple MiG-29s on the first pass and support his missiles via data link until the missiles go active. He can break the radar lock and leave or continue to the visual arena and employ short range infrared guided missiles or the gun. The Fulcrum pilot must wait until about 13 nautical miles (24 kilometers) before he can shoot his BVR missile. The Alamo is a semi-active missile that must be supported by the launching aircraft until impact. This brings the Fulcrum pilot closer to the AMRAAM. In fact, just as the the Fulcrum pilot gets in range to fire an Alamo, the AMRAAM is seconds away from impacting his aircraft. The advantage goes to the F-16. “

    Polish Air Force pilots, who flow both types, many times, again each others has got different point of view:
    1.MiG-29 isn’t limited to 24km R-27R1 shoot.
    2.AMRAAM hasn’t got twice the range of R-27R1
    3. Why they compare 9.12 MiG-29 from 80′ to the modernised F-16C from 90′ (fox 3 capable) ?
    A fair comparsion will be MiG-29N (Malaysian, R-77 capable) with blk 30/40 Viper.
    4.WVR- comparable oponent. MiG-29 is more maneuverable, but JHMCS+AIM-9X is better than HMS+R-73 combo on 9.12.
    5.In BVR F-16 has the edge because of fox-3.

    This is based on many article from polish magazine I’ve read in last 10 year (“Lotnictwo”, “Armia”, “Aero”, “Nowa Technika Wojskowa”)
    There were for example interviews with our pilots, descriptions of battles between this two types, and several MiG-29 vs F-16 article.

    2 airticle written at different time
    at that time there was no aim-9x so i think mig-29 stll have an edge due to hmd and r-73 combo , mig-29 can also make tighter turn however due to drag airframe it bleed energy quite quick and have much inferior sustain turn rate

    in reply to: F35 News only thread for 2013 #2257275
    moon_light
    Participant

    This article is a load of rubbish not only is it comparing to the Mig 29A which is not fair but the Mig 29M SEVERELLY DOWNGRADED EXPORT VERSION OF Mig 29A the MONKEY EXPORT VERSION.
    The export version of the Mig 29A has a completelly different severelly downgraded radar,fire control system,downgraded engines,downgraded ECM and IFF and navigation systems and the real Soviet VVS version especially the C is far superior.
    The Soviet VVS started to use the Mig 29C in about 1987 which was vastly improved “The MiG-29S is similar in external appearance to older MiG-29B airframes, except for the dorsal hump behind the cockpit canopy. Differences start with the improvements in the flight control system. Four new computers provide better stability augmentation and controllability with an increase of 2° in angle of attack (AoA). Its improved mechanical-hydraulic flight control system allows for greater control surface deflections. The MiG-29S’s dorsal hump, earning it the nickname “Fatback” in service, was originally believed to be for additional fuel, but in fact, most of its volume is used for the new L-203BE Gardenyia-1 ECM system. The MiG-29S can carry 1,150 liter (304 US gallon, 2,000 lb) drop tanks under each wing and a centerline tank. Inboard underwing hardpoints are upgraded to allow for a tandem pylon arrangement for a larger payload of 4,000 kg (8,820 lb). Overall maximum gross weight has been raised to 20,000 kg (44,000 lb). The GSh-30-1 cannon had its expended round ejector port modified to allow for firing while the centerline tank is still attached. Improvements also allow for new longer-range air-to-air missiles like the R-27E (AA-10 “Alamo”) and R-77 (AA-12 “Adder”). Initially, the avionics of the MiG-29S only added a new IRST sighting system combined with a better imbedded training system that allowed for IR and radar target simulation. However, the final MiG-29S improvement kit also provides for the Phazotron N019M radar and more built-in test equipment (BITE) (especially for the radar) to reduce dependence on ground support equipment; MiG MAPO calls this model the MiG-29SD. Revised weapon system algorithms in the MiG-29S’s software, combined with an increase in processing capacity, allows for the tracking of up to 10 targets and the simultaneous engagement of two with the R-77 missile.”

    newer mig-29 version mostly improve in electronic or RCS aspect and they become heavier as well so newer version not necessary more agile ( the same for F-16 , block 60 while have the best engine still not as agile as early version of F-16 like block 30) , i mostly talk about how agile these aircraft are

Viewing 15 posts - 691 through 705 (of 913 total)