moon_lightNot entirely on topic but, and I may very well be wrong but, wikipedia article about R-27 it pretty much wrong. IIRC, Avtomatika does not produce IR seekers, and 9B-1032 is the passive seeker head for R-27P/EP variant. R-27T uses Geofizika 36T, which was technologically similar to 60TI on R-60s. It did not have LOAL or HOBS, so it was pretty limited at BVR ranges. On the other hand R-27ET uses the same Mayak-80 seeker on R-73s, and while it still doesnt have a datalink, it does have high off bore sight and lock on after launch capabilities. With ~15 km ranged seeker searching a 45 deg cone, it only needs to get somewhere close to the target to maddog on it, unlike ARH missiles.
r-73 dont have LOAL :p
moon_lightHi, i’m not wishing to be awkward but perhaps its wise to leave proposed weapons such as CUDA out of these debates for the moment as we simply do not know anywhere near enough about it at this time to even hazard a guess as to what situations it will be of most use in and how effective it might be, thats if it even gets produced at all of course. Thanks.
the same can be say about J-20 and T-50 :confused: may be they will be just like su-47
moon_lightTell that to the Japanese Zero pilots
and you may also ask that to F-18 pilots when fighting for example F-22 or just about anything else,
@35AoA for example
in case of F-22 fighting the F-18 , the F-18 simply dont know where the F-22 so speed bring a lot of advantages , same for the case of ZEro ,when enemy go out of sight pilot dont know from what direction they will come back 😀 , but for F-35 the thing is completely different because DAS can help pilot see in all direction
moon_lightNonsens to stay polite.
You will loose speed in WVR. When you hit merge and starts on the circles the Air speed goes down. You want to savior the speed, then trade it for altitude.. until the bitchin Betty goes: “pull up pull up”.You cant supercruise in a merge dude..:D
Pls read some books on BFM kiddie.
that just what i said in WVR dogfight supercruise and max speed can’t be use so they are irrelevant
moon_lightNow you are deceiving me a bit 🙂 With flying abilities roughly matching F-16/F-18 today the F-35 will be an underdog compared to its future peers. Hit and run tactics against high performance aircraft capable of M1.5+ supercruise will be unthinkable – instead of being either a Zero or a Hellcat the F-35 will combine both drawbacks together, I am afraid – agility of a Hellcat with speed of a Zero..
in dogfight u will almost always go after burner to regain speed after turning ( but u will always stay at mach 0.8-1.2 ) so either the ability to super cruise or top speed is useful in that case 😎 the thing that matter is acceleration , Aoa ,lift yes i agree if only using gun the F-35 maybe an under dog however it have CUDA and DAS 😀 remember and yes may be in the future T-50 have equal thing but that only mean a mutual kill :confused: because i dont think any aircraft can out manuever a missile at very short range
so what your point here ??
moon_lightI agree, but an engagement on a 1-2km distance sounds awfully like a dogfight to me. Ain’t that exactly what the F-35’s makers were trying to avoid at all cost?
what i mean is if the Meteor fail to hit the enemy , aim-132 fail due to enemy’s DIRCM , then CUDA can be use as a dogfight missiles in WVR , as F-35 can lock enemy from 360 degree around it it make the ability of T-50 or J-20 to turn tighter quite useless
moon_lightI don’t think you can depend on considerable superiority of the F-35’s sensors or avionics for the future. Both T-50 and J-20 will come years, if not decades after the F-35 and they will likely have comparable, if not better sensors installed. It will require MASSIVE investments for keep the large 1,000+ F-35 fleet on par with them – see the painstakingly slow progress of Raptor’s upgrades and that is only 180+ aircraft (cheek arrays, AIM-9X integration, HMS…).
Now you are deceiving me a bit 🙂 With flying abilities roughly matching F-16/F-18 today the F-35 will be an underdog compared to its future peers. Hit and run tactics against high performance aircraft capable of M1.5+ supercruise will be unthinkable – instead of being either a Zero or a Hellcat the F-35 will combine both drawbacks together, I am afraid – agility of a Hellcat with speed of a Zero..
Firstly
faster speed also mean hotter so u will be detected from longer distance , turn harder , faster closing speed also mean more effective range to enemy missiles
But if u can go fast and undetected then it be another story because IF the enemy dont know you was there so they dont fire missiles back then in that situation u have no disadvantages however going supersonic toward a gen 5 fighter like F-35 hoping it willnot detect u by DAS or EOTS is quite optimisticyep speed important but in WVR you will never ever going faster than mach 0.8-1.2 so the advantages in speed of T-50 and J-20 has nothing to do here , and as F-35 is designed to fly transonic it will have very good acceleration at this speed range
secondly F-35 will also have block upgrade 😉 and USA have more money than russian or chinese i think 😀
moon_lightand one thing i forget got to mention , while radar guide missiles can’t lock stealth fighter from very far that doesn’t mean they can’t lock at stealth fighter at all 😉 stealth # invisible so i think CUDA can lock at stealth aircraft from at least 1-2 km so it be use as a compliment to cannon 😀 and as they are hit to kill missile so they have no problem hitting target at very short range unlike normal missiles ( aim-7 , aim-120 );)
moon_lightAn opponent with kinematic advantage will always have the option to use superior speed to get into a favorable firing position to enhance its range drastically.. That is why speed is always important.
what exactly is the firing position you are talking about here :confused: if it WVR ???? ,if you was talk about BVR then faster speed also mean hotter so u will be detected from longer distance , turn harder , faster closing speed also mean more effective range to enemy missiles => if u can go fast and undetected then it be another story because IF the enemy dont know you was there so they dont fire missiles back then in that situation u have no disadvantages however going supersonic toward a gen 5 fighter like F-35 hoping it willnot detected by DAS or EOTS is quite optimistic
yep speed important but in WVR you will never ever going faster than mach 0.8-1.2 so the advantages in speed of T-50 and J-20 has nothing to do here , and as F-35 is designed to fly transonic it will have very good acceleration at this speed range
moon_lightThat is nothing new. All IR-guided missiles are limited in head-on engagements. Including AIM-9X. An opponent with kinematic advantage will always have the option to use superior speed to get into a favorable firing position to enhance its range drastically.. That is why speed is always important.
BTW, there are at least two programs for development of an upgraded R-27ET seeker – most notably Arsenal AZ-10/MR-2000 retrofit.
DIRCM will be fielded on all future gen fighters, not just the F-35. If they are effective enough to render even the most advanced IR seekers useless (as you say…) then we have a problem – radar guidance is very limited due to very low RCS, IR guidance is very limited due to DIRCM, what can we do? Except coming close and using a gun I don’t see many other options. And we are back at the good old agility, speed and maneuvrability… That, again, doesn’t sound good..
even your upgraded R-27ET dont have data link so it still useless on BVR :rolleyes: as if the opponent new the missile is comming and change the direction , the missile become useless
and except from the F-35 i haven’t heard of any source say that J-20 and T-50 will have DIRCM
( you may say these thing will change in the future however in that case i can also say in the future Meteor and CUDA will also have LOAL IIR seeker 😉 even now they have the NCADE that use Aim-120 body with a aim-9x seeker so who know about the future , DIRCM may be able to defeat 2-3 missiles but how about 4-5 missiles at the same time we dont know )
and remember stealth fighter dont have very small RCS from all direction ( even the F-22 or B-2 will have big RCS if you look down at them ) so RF missiles willnot be completely useless ,and what make you believe that T-50 and J-20 will have equal or smaller RCS than F-35 😉 not to mention the jamming ability of APG-81 , and if the enemy move faster , they will also be hotter => EOTS and DAS can detected them from farther if the F-35 detected them first it will just launch all of it missiles and run away before enemy know about it :p
finally , if u want to fight F-35 by gun then remember it almost agile as F-16 and still have great nose pointing ability of F-18 so i dont think T-50 , and J-20 will have that much advantages even with 3D TVC , and history have prove that with tactic less agile aircraft can still defeat the one which is very agile ( hell cat vs Zero ) by boom zoom tactic
moon_lightThey would.. if they are radar guided.. But Chinese will most likely have fielded a copy of the R-27ET or some indigenous medium-range IR-guided missile. I am not aware of any missile like that be integrated with the F-35 anytime soon.
:rolleyes: seriously
R-27ET AA-10 Alamo-D, the infrared-homing extended-range version, which is 70 cm longer and slightly wider, range of 120 km under optimal conditions using the Avtomatika 9B-1032 (PRGS-27) seeker head. Weight 348 kg. Entered service in 1990. The R-27ET missile does not possess a data-link, which makes it useful only at much shorter ranges at head-on engagements, however. At tail-on engagements the longer physical reach can be fully utilized.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-27_(air-to-air_missile)
and dont forget DIRCM on F-35 that make even the most modern IIR , EO seeker become useless 😉
well may be F-35 is not the fastest , most agile , most VLO it still a very dangerous fighter even to the next gen fighter ( 5th-6th )
moon_lightIf the opponent is stealthy (J-20, T-50), then AIM-120s will most likely be having trouble to lock on at any reasonable range.. Then all the opponent needs to do is stay out of reach of the AIM-9X and use his medium range IR guided missiles.. Even if well aware of the aggressor, the F-35 has nothing to fight back with and it also lacks kinematic advantage to disengage.. That doesn’t sound good.
follow your logic then enemy’s radar guide missiles also can’t lock at F-35 from reasonable range 😉 , and even worse their IR missiles will be quite useless due to F-35’s DIRCM 😀 , and like i said before in head on situation the range of missiles against faster targets also longer , and more than that if yo go fast it be harder for you to turn
so what now , gun fight ? accelerate to mach 2 is not that easy , dogfight mostly happened in sub-transonic speed so enemy doesnot really have that much advantages against f-35 even if both using cannon only
moon_lightHmm, that obviously means flying slow brings nothing but advantages… Amazing how LM were wrong when they designed the F-22..
I’d say that ability to fight back instead of just desperately trying to evade missiles would be more appropriate… but if you insist.. I personally would be having quite much fun sitting in a J-20, playing a cat-and-mouse game with the F-35 which might be well aware of my presence due to great sensors but still be completely helpless to do anything about it.
flying fast do have advantages for example when you retreat the faster you fly , the shorter the effective range of enemy missiles , and fly fast also give more range , speed to your missiles but that doesnot mean it have no disadvantages 😉 , it also bring disadvantage like i have said , everything have 2 sides people seem to always look at only the advantages or disadvantages rather than both
secondly what make you think F-35 can’t fight back ??? , it can have 3 Meteor for BVR , 4 CUDA , 2 aim-132 and about 200 bullet for WVR and still stealth 😉 and it can evade missiles from enemy much easier by DIRCM , jamming from APG-81 and DAS
moon_lightbtw i still can’t find anything on any forum , website say IRST can use dynamic ranging :confused: can anyone give me a source
moon_lightTo carry more, and avoid crippling the Meteor missile,
while saving money at it.
but it will increase rcs alot , i think 3 meteor + 2 aim-132 + 4 CUDA is quite enough for air to air mission , may be if there more than one F-35 then the load out could be different , some F-35 carry MALD-J , some carry jammer , some carry 8 meteor + 2 aim-132 :rolleyes:
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