I hope the CUDA seeker has 90+Β° off-boresight capability so they can call it the HEMI-CUDA.
Nic
may be they will be more useful as the anti missile missile like the RAM RIM-116 π
If that was the case, why did the Germans leave the project
in favor of a much more agile missile ?
based on what you think their missile is more agile ? :confused: , they left the project may be due to various reason for example cost , flexibility … etc and actually while other fighter have to defeat super agile IIR missiles by maneuver which have tiny small chance of success, F-35 can simply use it’s DIRCM which is much much easier and and more reliable
Sorry but your link didnt support that statement, for starters.
Secondly since when did a laser rangefinder detect, track & lock anything ?
As for the rest of your drivel, yawn, nah, whatever…..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10652020
at 1:05->1:09 you can see they state the range as exactly 49 miles (about 78 km ) away , without laser finder range they can’t know that because the IR or EO sensor alone can’t determine the range
moreover EOTS is basically Sniper-XR ,an equivalent of Sniper-XR is ATFLIR , and the ATFLIR’s laser can reach 40 nm so it is reasonable to believe that EOTS can at least have equal performer http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/atflir/
( IRST can only give the bearing without the range so you can only detect and track but you couldn’t lock or attack the target , to know the range you must have laser range finder, the maximum range of the laser finder range is the range which the IRST can lock the enemy )
personally i think the F-35 is the best 5th gen fighter ,even when compared to the F-22 or t-50
in BVR :
F-35’s RCS is about 0.0015 m2 , even the strongest radar on fighter today , the irbis-e can only see the F-35 from 45 km , the L-band radar on T-50 seem to be too small and weak to be able to detected F-35 from longer range
F-35’s APG-81 can track target with RCS = 1 m2 from 160 km ( enough to see any 4th , 4.5th gen fighter from a long distance ( caused these aircraft carry weapon externally and dont think their RCS can be less than 1 m2
the EOTS’s laser finder range can reach 80 km that mean it can detected , track , lock both air and ground stealth target from 80 km http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10652020
APG-81 have been shown to be able to jam even the APG-77 so it very less likely that it will having trouble jamming R-77 , aim-120 or Meteor , and F-35 ‘s very small RCS also make it a dificult target
Meteor can be carry by F-35 , that may be the best BVR missile
In WVR :
F-35 can do 9.9 G , reached 50 degree AoA , and at least as agile as an F-16
DAS allow it to detected , track enemy in 360 degree around the aircraft , allow over shoulder shot
F-35 will have DIRCM http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/australia-shows-dircm-for-jsf-204809/ , that the only way to defeat modern seeker on missiles like Python-5 , aim-9x or R-74
F-35 can also carry many CUDA missiles for WVR http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=17227 
even the F-22 or Su-35 are not going to out manuever AIM-132
P/s : IRST may be the good way to detected F-35 from longer distance , however irst on most fighter have very weak laser finder range to allow them to lock target from long distance
OLS-35 laser range is only 15 km
Pirate , aas-42 don’t have laser
OSF laser range is 40 km
This document is approved for public release.
You don’t know some classified info about this system so you shouldn’t categorically state that your own conclusion is the only true .Cpt Romaine is the Rafale pilot , and he think otherwise. He use LPI PESA radar , and probably has acces to some classified info about RBE2 AESA LPI radar that you will never know. I’ll rather go this way than reading everything about secret military system in internet.
yeah This document is approved for public release so i dont think it include any classified info π but why you think that pilot did say the truth , maybe he can’t say the truth because it is not permitted π
just kidding : Btw i just found an incident when F-16 attack a patriot radar by Agm-88 , the patriot’s radar is PESA radar and also LPI , so i think HTS and Agm-88 should be able to detected PESA radar :confused: ( still not sure about AESA :p)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/40385576/Detection-and-Jamming-Low-Probability-of-Intercept-Radar
:p RWR can detected lpi radar but at very very short range compared to the range lpi radar can see the enemy π
It was disclosed after the Viggen was retired in 2005 that it was capable of a βsilentβ AIM-120 attack, performed by two aircraft using their PS 46/A radars in passive mode. .
this is not very special , in fact HTS on F-16 can find the location of target (range , angle , altitude ) even if there only one aircraft π
No that was different story from the red flag , and it was a gun kill achieve by F/A-18F from VFA-11 , not EA-18G by AMRAAM shoot.
http://tailhookdaily.typepad.com/tailhook_daily_briefing/2007/07/fa-18f–vs–fa-.html
sorry i didnt really look at it π , OK then AESA radar can be detected but very very rarely ( only 1 kill BVR ), and with very sensitive RWR , and very short period of time they said it a well time shot right :confused:
or may be the EA-18 just lock the F-22 by it’s radar :confused:
Python 5 is modern IIR missile :
http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/284-856-en/Marketing.aspx
And one of them failed recently :
http://alert5.com/2012/10/11/israeli-fighter-pilot-fired-two-python-missiles-to-down-drone/
….
:p the drone is too small , the missile may be near miss but it’s fuze unable to make the missiles go boom π , or may be just because of bad maintainer:cool:
Not only more agile but slower! If they are just 0,5 mach faster then it is impossible to outmaneuver them.
aim-132 reached mach 3 but still almost impossible to outmaneuver , remember
1-missiles do not fly at top speed all the time
2-missiles do not perform exactly the maneuver the aircraft do but rather trying to intercept them
3-maneuver make aircraft lose speed , and it not very easy to evade salvo of missiles
Yes, somewhere between 2 to 5 percent Pk
@totoro gathered the data here
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=117432With the introduction of negative stability, MAWS, and countermeasures,
i expect something similar with the much vaunted ‘double digit’ sam’s
vs today’s state of the art fighters.
And those IIR seekers will probably do a tad better than previous seekers,
and the latest and greatest WVR missiles are also so agile that they
are indeed lethal at short distances
my point is that even with very low PK , missiles did shot down many aircrafts in Vietnam war , and far from useless , and with more and more modern missile like Aim-120D , Meteor the PK will increase , still low but the point of BVR missile is to avoid mutual kill , dogfight may have higher PK but very very dangerous for the pilot himself
This is only your opinion base on marketing spot and from public paper. I rather believe a fighter pilot , who know much more about this toys than you.
1.Where did You get this info ?
2.How do you know – give me sources , but no from wiki and LM but more credible .
3. Sources again ? Who wrote that it was WVR ?
Pilot say :
“Alas, after that bombshell, the conversation quickly dried up. I did learn the EA-18G kill was courtesy of a well-timed AIM-120 AMRAAM shot. And I learned the simulated combat exercise took place at Nellis AFB. How the EA-18G escort jammer got the shot, and whether its jamming system played a role in the incident were not questions the pilot was prepared to answer.”If it was WVR – the supermaneuverable F-22 should kill rather heavy EA-18G with external stores and G-load limitation . Don’t you think so ? And remember – it was AMRAAM shot .
U can find on the internet picture of EA-18 hud with the f-22 being locked wvr
And the Pantsir S1 has a 100% killrate in real combat. Problem was that the F4 didnt use countermeasures. And neither has any other fighter that has been shoot down in BVR.
Against SAMs the situation is different because the missiles come from below. To trick them you need to get them in a tail chase outside the ground radars reach and then you can use the chaffs and jammers efficiently. And many ground based fire controls have 2 radars + optic scanning so its sort of difficult to trick them with jamming alone. And you will probably be targeted by a really strong radar for the SARH, and that means you have to foil the ground radar and not the missile. But thats another story.
The discussion is BVR, and in BVR its pretty fair to say that the AAM arent that dangerous if the pilot has warning systems, jammers, countermeasures, agility and buddies that can jam.
And about agility…
Try calculating with this to see how many G forces a misisle needs to handle to follow a slower airplane in a steep turn…
It is applied like this:a = accelleration = gravitational force, gravity has the accelleration speed of 9,8m/sΒ², thats the constant for a. If the pilot can take 9 G then a = 9*9,8m/sΒ².
v = speed in m/s. To simplify it is [mach speed * 340m/s], and this is squared
r = turn radius in meters.For a eurocanard that gets chased they will slow down briefly and to a split S sustaining 9 G going downward, this is the approximate turn radius and d = turn diameter for for the full 180.
9G*9,8m/s = (0,8mach*340m/s)Β²/r | 88,2m/s (felt gravity) = 73’984ms/r | r = 839 | d = r * 2 = 1’678 m
In mach 2 the radius is 5,2 km with the same G. (to perform the same turn (5,2km r) in mach 4 the G loading is over 36..)How many G does the missile need to handle to be able to follow the fighter? (it can make a short cut thanks to the distance so it might be tricky to calculate but give it a shoot).
How many G can the AMRAAM cope with?
Can the AMRAAM decelerate fast enough?EDIT: This is to simplify and let you come to your own conclusions.
Missile dont make the exactly the same turn as the aircraft , but intercept them so they dont need to turn that much G , aim-120 can cope with 36g
Fighters have evolved at least as much as missiles in the mean time,
pilots thought the evil missiles was dangerous in Vietnam too,
but not as dangerous as landing on a carrier at night.
And where did you get the idea that IIR missiles ALWAYS reject flares ?There is nothing in history that justify your faith in the mysterious missiles,
on the contrary.
The missile in Vietnam was did shot down many aircraft including the b-52 , and missile use IIR seeker can see the different between aircraft and flares so they can reject flares ex: aim-9x , aim-132 ….etc
Combat aircraft magazine – article ” Facing the raptor ” :
Maj.Gumbrecht:
“The Raptor has BVR capabilities that we don’t, but we did some neutral high aspect set-ups and both sides were suprised how the results came back “
Also Jon Lake , who was there say so :
http://typhoon.starstreak.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2068&start=150All indicates that the Eurofighter pilots know from which direction the threat is coming – so RWR work ?
I also read that F-35 successfully jam F-22 radar in test.
Wikipedia says that :
” Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars like those mounted on the F-22 or MiG-35 can also act as an ECM device to track, locate and eventually jam enemy radar.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_countermeasure
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/in-focus-latest-f-22-upgrade-brings-ability-to-jam-enemy-radars-370192/So I think you were wrong to say that f-22 can’t rely on jamming.
EA-18G kill F-22A by AMRAAM shoot in exercises :
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/02/growler-power-ea-18g-boasts-f-.html
So I think EA-18G could also jam and locate by RWR the APG-77 emission.
1- the ef-2000 pilot sure know the general direction the f-22 comming from ( like from west , or south ,,,,) they are not going to set f-22 formation behind the EF-2000 airfield right ? so it has nothing to do with RWR
2- f-35 can detected f-22 by EOTS and make a barrage noise jamming ( only kind of jamming that seem to be effective against AESA radar )
3- EA-18 kill F-22 in WVR ,and at close distance it still can use ATFLIR or Apg-79 to detect f-22
Flairs have pretty good results..
That can see through mountains?The AIM120 has a Pk of 0,46 against targets that dont try to evade it in BVR. If it can hit drones WVR is cool and impressive but the combat record speaks for itself. There are no BVR kills to this date against an enemy that has countermeasures.
The F35 will be dangerous as long as it has missiles. And it currently only holds 4 internally (might get expanded to 6). But other fighters have similar capabilities to get off bore shots.
Here is some reading for you just to put the whole BVR thing in perspective and to sort of come back to topic. http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf
And some extras π
In the biggest success ever for AA missiles the killrate, BVR and WVR combined, was 27% (Desert Storm), and thats a war where one side has awacs and the others dont even use countermeasures or radar warning receivers. Sounds like stealth fighters will have a walk in the park.
The PK of aim-120 were in real combat , and how we know the target were trying to evade or not if that were BVR ?? , even if target dont have RWR the pilot still have eye you know , moreover it was quite long time ago now the missile is much more advance ( in Vietnam War the SAM only achieve PK of 2% but no one think s-300/400 are not dangerous )
And IIR missile actually always reject flares
About the tatic : you donot always have mountain to hide , but the tatic i mention is not very depend on the environment