Frequency hopping is useless against barrage jamming and that accounts for a false dopplereffect too.

i know that why i mention HOJ

Data links that are beamed, like the next patch to TIDLS, wont be able to get intercepted. Or, in theory its possible if you are inside the beam..

i just say that caused alot of things will appear as noise on you RWR

No, dopplereffect cant take care of the chaffs because of the following:
1 They are moving
2 The returns are larger than the original target
3 The target makes a split S so it wont give away a noticeable dopplereffect due to the perpendicular motion. The chaffs will also give small dopplereffects so tracking will probably fail.
4 There are a lot of false echoes.
5 Its up to the seeker in the missile to track the target, and that seeker is a pesa or a weak aesa when that time comes.

well the problem of chaff is they decelerate very fast that why doppler effect can help to reject them and also the reason why they make towed decoy , target can make a split S but there are missiles come at different time , you can’t do the split S all the time and if you maneuver you will lose speed and become the prey for the next missiles

And towed decoys are supposed to give larger reflections and lure the HOJ systems. With barrage jamming the tiny missile seeker wont be able to track as it should so it will switch to HOJ, and that makes it target the towed decoy.

agree but no effect on IIR missille

All fighters can get close to the enemy by using tactics. Flying like this will make it hard to get BVR kills… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbp6JlBpDjs

many fighter radar have lock down / shot down mode

In the Finnish army trials for countermeasure systems to their FA18s the BOL was successful in 57 out of 57 trials, that might sort of give a hint on where we are when it comes to missile effectiveness.

in test Aim-120 also have very high PK

And close engagements is sort of the last thing you would want in the F35.

may be but with DAS , DIRCM, JHMCS the F-35 actually very very dangerous

the F-22’s radar works in a way that allows him to use it without revealing himself. Though its exact workings are classified, the F-22 is known to emit radar signals in extremely short bursts over multiple frequencies.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/f22-raptor-procurement-events-updated-02908/ :D:D:D

I’ve read some interesting papers from the Swedish army on background clutter and how one can use jamming to pretty much hide the airplanes and what tactics to use with it. Lets just say you have a copule of stealth drones behind your airplanes that randomly emitts signals and then go quiet and then emitt and go quiet etc.


The top picture is just an extreme version of a high clutter/noise environment and the lower is LPI spikes. The F35 is very close to the noise level in pic 2 at distance, the closer you get with your emissions the higher the spikes/returns will get and when they are above the threshold you will spot the F35. In a peace time environment the F35 can be spotted at +45 km head on, in a war timw scenario with AWACS in the background the noise level might easily double. With random jamming (but constand barrage jamming) from multiple sources that emit a few bursts, disapear and then appear some place else (networked jamming) it will be hard to figure out if the returns are real or if someone is messing with you. The key is to make your radars filter threshold to up and thus ignoring the real targets.

So the LPI signals are weaker than normal, and old systems will ignore them while new ones (like SPECTRA) will find them.

but AESA change frequency so fast , and quite close to the noise 🙁 , not to mention that you actually dont know the noise level of the environment caused it not stay the same all the time , even the reflect from fighter’s own radar and data link also create noise to it’s RWR , and if that fighter also use AESA or frequency hoping data link then the situation will get even more complicated

In Pic 9, try to imagine finding a target that reflects around 0db. (This is what the missile is facing closer to the jammers). And then a burst of 40+ targets (a fighter can drop over 1000 depending on config) that all are refclecting 0db to +40db depending on output, all of them moving in different directions and clutter coming from various angles. I dont think that the missiles ever will win this battle unless the targets EWS is old.

missile can use Doppler effect to find the real target so chaff are quite useless , most fighter only have 3-4 towed decoy , and often can carry maximum of 18-20 decoy like MALD-J or ITALD

Depends. Pylons dont reflect that much. But i agree that IRST will get more and more attention. And this is an area where the Eurofighters and Russians are very strong.

But when we talk about decoys and dispensers… the BOL system (used by pretty much everyone) carries 160 dispensable packs in every unit. And there is one unit in every pylon.

So for a tiny fighter like Gripen E it will have 4 integraded units and at least 6-10 in the pylons. This equates to 1600-2240 disposables/decoys (chaffs/flairs or a mix).. per plane. With a jamming pod they fit more in the pod.

Does this give you an idea on how hard it is to actually hit a fighter jet with a missile (if they are prepared)?

BOL http://www.saabgroup.com/en/Air/Electronic_Warfare_Solutions/Counter_Measure_Dispenser_Systems/BOL_Advanced_Countermeasure_Dispenser/Technical_specifications/
Pod http://www.saabgroup.com/en/Air/Electronic_Warfare_Solutions/Integrated_EW_Systems/BOZ_EC_CM_pod_with_MAW1/Technical_specifications/

in fact pylon reflect a lot , and even the missile and pod also have huge RCS , that why stealth fighter need internal weapon bay ,
secondly BOL ,BOZ only carry chaff or towed decoy both of that almost have no effect on enemy fighter radar ( chaff can be reject by doppler effect , towed decoy can’t repeat signal from AESA radar because they change frequency too fast ) => useless again missile guide by data link or IIR so they could never provide the level of protection that MALD-J and ITALD can provide 🙂

And i didn’t really talk about the kill , i just say , by using tatic the F-35 can still come near and get the first lock ,first shot at 4th or 4.5th gen fighter even if they were equipped with MALD-j and good IRST , and i have said before using the tatic the f-35 only fly half the distance as enemy fighter so it always get out of the IRST coverage before the enemy can get into th 80 km range , well unless the enemy can fly at mach 3.2

And if the target is not emitting? :rolleyes:

then the Raptor is ****** up 😀

Stealth is of course useful in modern fighter .
It reduced detectability by radar and by IR sensor , and it reduced own aircraft emission ( one fighter in formation use AESA radar in LPI mode and share the info with other guys ). With sensor fusion (IR,TV,RWR,radar,link16) modern fighter can evade false target and EM jammer by using combination of passive and active sensors.
I think that radar has still best detection range vs non VLO target (but radar is prone to jamming ), and current IRST can detect non AB target from 50km (head on ). The laser designation pod like Sniper XR can’t search volume of the sky like radar or IRST. The number given by company are for best condition – PIRATE IRST has max range 150km but probably against AB target in rear hemisphere . The number in front hemisphere for non AB target should be comparable to OLS-35, but this is only my speculation 🙂

http://www.deagel.com/Navigation-and-Targeting-Systems/OLS-35_a001926001.aspx

Also TV sensor is very important for visual identification target . Rafale FSO can visually ident M 2000 from over 50km

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/flight-test-dassault-rafale-rampant-rafale-334383/

Thanks to link-16 some new tactics are also introduced :

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/04/laad-2011-rafale-sensor-fusion.html

So the shooter and the radar emitting aircraft couldn’t be the same. In this situation shooter can turn back immediately after lunch. I think in this situation F-22 is managed to shotdown F-15 , F-16 without being detected (by radar 🙂 ). USAF f-15 and F-16 hasn’t got IRST so they can’t target the shooter. But F-22 also can provide target solution using only ALR-94 , when teens radar radiates at F-22 RWR. We don’t know how good are for example ALR-94 vs AESA LPI radar, but I think it can detect emission from much more range then just 10-15km .
All indicates that the German eurofighter try some BVR with F-22 and the German pilot rather know where to go , but couldn’t detect enemy by radar . Maj.Grumbrecht said that even if his planes did everything right, they weren’t able to get within 20 miles of the next-generation jets before being targeted.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/

I think that EF 2000 RWR were able to detect some LPI signals , so Eurofighter know where to go , but couldn’t track the F-22 by its radar emission (like ALR-94 and SPECTRA against non LPI radar ?)
Maybe RAF Typhoon with IRST could even make a BVR combat with F-22 at some over 20 miles ?
But like I said earlier – this is only my speculation and it could be far from the true 🙂

the F-15 , F-16 pilot say they dont see , detected any think even when they are shot down :p so i dont think the F-22 use the same tatic with rafale , and more than that the rafale doesnt have AESA radar at the moment
what iam talking about here is how well can a stealth aircraft like F-22 , F-35 fight against 4th gen fighter that equip with MALD-J , ALE-55 ,Jammer , JHMCS , IRST

In case of ATF/F-22, the choice was clear, they went with speed + agility.
Later on a moderate “stealth” was incorporated as feasible without
too much penalty on the primary objective: -speed + agility,
taking advantage of Su-27 rather huge RCS.
In my absolute opinion, the value of ‘stealth’ lies not in the fight itself,
but in delaying detection and thereby making intercept very difficult,
as in creating a demand of phenomenal speed to catch up.
And as if that wasn’t enough, the F-22 already has so high sustainable speed so few would even try

but then in F-35 they go with stealth rather than speed or agility , and with the number of F-35 very high , it likely will be the main fighter rather than the F-22 , both F-22 , F-35 still have no jamming or decoy

Its not hard to build dropable pylons. The locking mechanism should be electric, thats all. Currently there is no need for it.

i think to be able to hold very heavy bomb and missile , pylon can’t be drop , not to mention the electric wire …etc , unlike pylon for tank

RWR does work against AESA. What makes AESA trickier is the random frequency jumping and LPI-capability. The pulses in all other aspects look the same and many systems on the market have had LPI interception as standard for the last decade. (Ok, each pulse operate in a tiny bit broader band..)

i think it almost impossible to intercept AESA radar ,no RWR today claim they can track , located AESA radar:p

AESA radars also offer less emission “leakage” beyond their scanning cone, and can spread their signal emissions over a broad set of frequencies. Most people don’t think of the radar as part of a platform’s stealth level, but it is. Less side-lobe leakage improves the radar cross-section directly. “Agile beam” radars can both spread and switch frequencies as they go, which makes the radar very hard to detect, even when it’s on. Previous generation radars haven’t had that advantage, and turning on your fighter’s radar was kind of like the policeman who turns a flashlight on to find bad guys in a big warehouse. In all likelihood, they can see the light source before the policeman can use the beam to see them. Modern infantry solve this problem by using invisible infrared lights, which work with their night-vision goggles and allow them to see without being seen. Agile beam AESA radars offer the same advantage for a modern fighter jet.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/new-apg79-aesa-radars-for-super-hornets-0411/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_electronically_scanned_array

To get a reflection from any object you need to illuminate it with a lot more than you want back. So the antennas in the RWR wil always have a huge advantage, and since most modern fighters already are LO designs it wont be that easy to get a big enough reflection fron them without alerting them.
When the F35 uses EOTS the enemy can use their version of the system… jammers are only used to break tracking or a lock on. If it is networked jamming the output will be spread out on multiple emitters that do some bursts each, then others continue (if the jamming has to be constant which seldom is the case).

from some where i have read , the AESA radar signal appear like background noise to RWR

to get to the bottom of this we need som examples of situations. This is what several fighter jets have today in sensors:
IR/Optical systems, over 45km range head on. 360 degree coverage.
Radars with +/- 100 to 120 degrees azimuth (sectors of 200-240 degrees), some Russian jets even have a tail AESA with +/- 90 degrees. I think its hard to escape those scan sectors.
The only way to get away from this is to fly outside the reach since it unlikely that one can escape the scan sectors. and by doing that you allow the enemy to get close enough to main base and release sead missiles.

all modern fighter today have radar coverage of only 60-70 degree except the irbis-E ( 120 degree , have to rotate to achieve that and it can only see F-35 at 45 km ) , and the F-35 will attack the enemy from the side
the only IR sensor that give 360 degree cover is the DAS on F-35 , ( Missile warning is not count ) , and actually if enemy use many IR sensors that can give total cover of 360 degree then the detection range of these sensor will not going to be high ,so as long as the F-35 keep the distance 50-80 km , and out side the enemy’s main radar , IRST coverage angle it is not going to be detected :p
last but not least , i dont think russian have any thing equal to ITALD or MALD-J at the moment