.

By flying low you wont expose your pylons to the enemy and the ground creates clutter. If you fly in a place like this: http://mb.cision.com/Public/183/9317381/9e89d517aac90fa7_org.jpg then what you carry doesnt matter. The purpose is an intercept for the expected enemy route and then unleash a hell consisting of a huge amout of targets. And now you have a clean fighter if you have dropable pylons. Maybe you might keep wing tip missiles.

if iam not wrong then the only aircraft that can drop it’s pylon is F-22 ,and only when it carry fuel tank:D , and you cannot always fly in clutter

.Another thing is the fact that the target will have warning receivers that point out where the enemy is. So whoever uses their own radar tells where they are first.

RWR doesnot seem to work against AESA radar , at least in near future

And now we have moved on from countermeasures and missile seekers to “first shoot” ranges. Also… jamming will make the effective range shorter… way shorter. In the case of F15C vs Su30MKI the F15 could not get any sort of missile lock on at ny range! And that is a pretty large target. We will see how good the new AESAs are, but add a jamming pods (ALQ-218 and ALQ-99) on a few fighters and it will be borderline impossubru to rely on radar alone.

no fighter operate it’s jamming pod all the time , because it like telling the HOJ missile to hit them , and in fact in the situation that i create , F-35 will only use APG-81 to detected enemy at long distance , when it re-engage it will use EOTS to lock and guide the Meteor or Aim-120D until the very last moment 😎

I think that the pilots trying to get a lock on a group of 8 F16, out of which 3 have ALQ-218+ALQ-99, jamming as soon as they are found and responding by sending off some 50 target drones to loiter in the area will fell like this:

when decoy are common they will get used to it 🙂

What is the most logical thing to do? The fighters that sent of the target drones are now in a pretty clean config and can chase the F35s (or whatever the enemy would be) pretty far… and noone knows where the genuine targets are (except for one side…). Personally i would just rely more on tactics, countermeasures and IR missiles since the F35 cutaways show that it has very few dispensers. Just use MICA IR and some extra jamming pods and i have a hard time seeing how that would make you number two in BVR encounters.

good but they will not even see the F-35 :p so dont know where to go

But this whole mind experiment is fun and it might actually work. PS… how do you fly perpendicular to an object that loiters for 4-500km and follows GPS-coordinates, aka has no straight line in the path? DS

you dont have to fly perfectly perpendicular , the point of that is just to get out of enemy sensor coverage angle :p , and iam sure both the enemy aircraft and decoys will fly in same formation , direction ,dont think they will change direction a lot
because like i state before the F-35 will likely to spot enemy aircraft and decoys by radar at 160 km rather than 500 km

EDIT: Just because a human can se a burning candle up to 48 km away it doesnt mean we can repeat it with high clutter (like daylight, fog etc)

but there not always clutter

Here’s another crazy thought.

Design a new pylon that has room for two MALDs head -to-toe. At each point, mount a BRU-69. That gives a total of 4 MALDs that eject straight down (or close enough to that for Govt work). Since the total is well under 2500 lbs, the F-35 can easily carry 4 of these for a total of 18 MALDs.

Here’s the icing on the cake: swap some of the MALDs for JSOW(ER) (2 internal & 4 on the inner pylons) for 6 JSOWs and 12 MALDs. At a 2:1 decoy/jammer to JSOW ratio, most of them should get through.

MALD is much longer than Gbu-39 , so it dont work , however i think ITALD and MALD-J are quite the same , except for the range :p ( 300 km vs 920 km ) and the jamming ability. With MER and TER the F-35 can already carry 6 MALD-J + 12 ITALD ( or 12 MALD-J + 6 ITALD , caused MALD is longer than ITALD , may be we can put it in the front part of MER rack ) also give a total of 18 decoys , along with 8 SDB II or Spear i think that quite enough to penetrate even a strong defend , if F-35 can eject it’s pylon after launch the decoys then it will be perfect :diablo:

Weight wise, there is nothing keeping the F-35 from carrying the same 6x MALD rack that the B-52 carries (I warned you it was crazy) on the inner wing station. Put a TER on the outer wing station and a MALD in the internal bay.

In case the wing stations are too close to each other, the outer TER would be limited to two MALDS (ala F-16) which means a max of 18.

That being said, this will never happen (I did say crazy).

A more likely max load is 10 (Four MERs and two internal).

Don’t forget to throw in some Boeing CHAMPs for good measure 🙂

the B-52 is way much much bigger than the F-35 😮 and it’s MERs rack can even carry something like ALCM

the thing about MALD is that it too long to be carry on normal MER rack of fighter , but the MALD is quite small , and light compared to mk-82 or Itald so i think the outer station can carry a maximum of 3 MALD per pylon , i think it will be useful ,if the F-35 have to attack something like S-400 ?

I don’t see decoys as being of much use in A2A once inside the range of FLIR/IRST. I see them more useful in A2G ops to spoof IADS and defending aircraft.

inside range of FLIR/IRST stealth aircraft ,or aircraft that have very very powerful radar have no advantages against normal gen4 aircraft

F35 may detect F22 first, however but the missiles wont be able to lock it! Also F22 may also be able to outrun the missile launched by F35 due to its kinematic advantages

F-22 can only detected f-35 at 35 km :rolleyes: , and because it is head on intercept the high speed of f-22 will only give enemy missile more chance to hit it , not to mention that f-22 could’nt make a 9g turn at mach 1.8 ( the airfame will break ) , trying to evade a mach 4 missile in it’s NEZ zone is silly and f-35 can carry 4 AAM

:rolleyes:
Yeah, and Astra Mark 2 has a range of 150 km, also assuming head on, non maneuvering, high alt., but only 34 km in tail chase,
still assuming non maneuvering & high alt.

A missile is flying straight into a wall if it has to maneuver,
several times more drag than flying at low alt. even.

F-22 will not even see the missiles coming untill it come very near , i dont think the raptor have time to run away , so it should be a head on intercept , and like you said before the f-22 flying high right ? , and honestly i think 50 km is the NEZ of meteor or Aim-120d
And in any case the f-22 still couldn’t find the f-35

Yes, this is what caused AMRAAM, it is no longer necessary to paint

yeah but F-22 vs F-35 then F-22 will never get the first shot :p , may be it wont even see the F-35 , so basically the F-22 will go at speed of mach 1.8 when it got a mach 4 Meteor or NCADE to the face:D ( head on may be the F-22 wont even have time to turn)

I think the comparison is based too much on the “official metrics” and speculation.

Has there, to this date, been any confirmed BVR kill on any airplane that has used jammers and taken evasive maneuvers?

AFAIK it hasn’t.

This is the playing field today, radar homing missiles:
Jamming. The missile seekers radar will pretty much always have a disadvantage against jammers. A small radar will pretty much always lose that figh. Barrage jamming, DRFM jamming (works well today), networked jamming (cross eye jamming with interrupted transmisisons) etc.

Better seekers (radars) wont make jamming useless. So one could add a new function like Home on Jam. But that works poorly when its tracking three targets that appear in different places all the time (networked jamming + cross eye jamming). And still… barrage jamming will be effective even with better seekers.

Decoys. Chaffs + jamming from random directions where there suddenly are 40 new targets, 20 larger than the original one, 20 of roughly the same size… + reflections from the jammers + split S that gives RCS-spikes and totally changes shape and RCS of original target… Which reflection is now what? All targets give doppler effects that could be genuine too…

Combine this with standard jamming and it starts to get clear why missiles will have a hard time hitting the planes. Stealth or no stealth.

The difference here between gen 4++ fighters and F35 is that the old ones usually carries towed decoys while the F35 only have them in external pylons… and external pylons are not standard for the F35. So the F35 will be harder to find, but it will have less countermeasures (by count).

And these are just a few of the problems for the missiles themselves that have to be overcome before we can disqus flight performance, radar range etc. In a high clutter environment… what performance is expected from a small radar anyways? And at what ranges do we expect to get a lock on?? Im sceptic about if its possible to get a lock on without alerting the enemy if one is using the onboard radar…

Just look at this video from Axalp. Is it fair to say that max range is totally irrelevant here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbp6JlBpDjs

So to sum it up:
The F35, as well as all other modern fighters, will have a great advantage over AAM if they can jam, drop decoys (towed ones of chaffs).

The main bottleneck when it comes to survival agains the missiles wont be the stealth, it will be the jam resistance in the missiles (that always will have troubles unless they are huge). During the coming 10 years AESA will probably become standard on all BVR-missiles, still… todays EWS systems will be hard to defeat, even with the new seekers.

In twenty years we might be able to crack the jamming of today. But by then both sides will have evolved.

Maybe when we have autonomous LOAL on BVR IR missiles we can start measuring flight characteristics och the various sorts and start calculating.

A new idea have just appear in my mind :diablo: , a rack like MERs can carry 6 ITALD ( have range over 400 km ) , TERs rack can carry 3 MALD-J ( range over 920 km ) http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-141.html ,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-141_TALD , these decoys can be carried just like MK-82 ,and even F-16 can carry 18 MK-82 , and no fighter now a days can carry more than 12 AAMs :diablo: does that mean even the F-16A equipt with these decoys can be a great threat to any F-22 , F-35 , T-50 , Su-35s , EF-2000 , rafale …etc caused it will force these aircraft to dogfight when they run out of missile , and in dogfight the out come actually depend on the pilot more than the aircraft