moon_lightMaker of SD-10 is “very” reliable on others missiles.
😉
i think may be the producer did say the truth ? , at least there no point talk good about rival company’s product but he still do so , does that mean Aim-120C and Meteor actually very advance :D:D compared to R-77 ,Mica
moon_lightF119 engines are optimized for high altitude since the very low bypass means they retain a greater percentage of thrust. F-135 has medium bypass and available thrust suffers terribly at high altitude (about 10% of SLS thrust at 60Kft) and would likely require afterburner to climb to that altitude.
F-35 would also be shooting AIM-120 uphill, losing a lot of deltaV (range) to gain altitude. F-22 is shooting downhill and can exploit the altitude difference to provide additional standoff distance. This allows the F-22 shooter to turn away after launch while a teammate provides midcourse updates. The difference in range/energy for identical missiles shot uphill v downhill is not trivial.
According to many source the ceiling of F-35 is about 57Kft to 60Kft http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Swords_and_Shields_F-35_beats_Russians_999.html, and like i have said , how could the F-22 shot the F-35 if it could not even detected the F-35 ? while the F-35 can detected , track , target F-22 from 80 km by EOTS, at high altitude the air is thin so missile can fly longer distance , the high speed of F-22 mean missiles could be launch from longer too so in fact F-22 dont have any advantages here , not to mention that Apg-81 was able to jam apg-77 (in test ;))
due to the huge different in detection range , i think the F-35 will be able to climb to required altitude before it launch the missile ?
moon_lighti just discover this , seem to be quite informative ,i never know that Meteor can reach 160 km , and it is rated as the best missile even by a different missile producer 😀
Some translations and points discovered by Hyperwarp in the AFM concerning an magazine published article of an interview with the designer of the SD-10.
“Efective combat altitude 0-25Km.
Ability to engage target 10kms higher or lower than launch altitude.
Range at 10Km altitude at M1.2 target at same altitude =70Km.
No escape zone for F-16 type target = 35-45km
Max overload=38G, Speed =4M
Plans to be also used as SAM system.”“Designer was asked at end to rate BVR AAMs. He rated Meteor as best BVR AAM, then AIM-120C, then his SD-10, then AIM-120A/B, R-77, Skyflash at equal fourth, then Derby, and last of all, MICA.”
“What the designer said is that they used the same way AIM-120 calculated its range. target and launch aircraft flying at each other at 1.2 mach and at 10000 metres. The range is 70 km under such circumstance.
Also interesting is the designer basically said the russians “cheated” with R-77, as they calculated the max range with target and launcher flying at each other at 1.5 mach and at 12000 metres altitude.”A more detailed translation by Dongdong posted in the AFM forums:
“I just bought the BING GONG KE JI magazine with the SD-10 designer interview. The interview is pretty informative. Add my points for translation:
Ahout the max shot range:
The Deputy Chief Designer of SD-10 said: The parameter of “max range” is determined by the relative position of missile’s carrier and the target aircraft. The assumed conditions by various countries are different. So what the Russian said the max range 100Km may not be better than what we said the max range 70Km. The max range 70Km in SD-10 marketing promotion brochure is measured under the condition that both the missile’s carrier and the target aircraft are flying at 10Km’s altitude, both the missile carrier’s velocity and target’s velocity are 1.2Mach, their flying direction is reverse(head to head). AIM120’s test condition is similar to SD-10. However Russian’s propaganda is a little more exaggerated. For example, R-77’s test condition is: carrier and target are flying at 20Km’s altitude; each has 1.5M’s velocity, head to head flying. Under such a condition, the max range is 100Km. The problem is higher altitude means less aerodynamic resistance, plus the faster velocity for both the carrier and the target. The range is naturally longer. So you shouldn’t only consider parameters isolated with each other. In fact, our SD-10’s range is better than AIM-120A/B, a litter less than AIM-120C, almost same as R-77’s.About ranking MRAAM:
Designer : It’s not easy to rank …..Various persons have various standards…
First of all, Euro’s Meteor should be No.1. This missile’s performance is very advanced, its range reaches 160Km.It belongs to next generation missiles. Next, I think the AIM-120C is more advanced. For original AIM-120 missile, whatever components, materials and craft are world first class. Now it is upgraded to Type C, it makes new progress on range, precision and anti-jamming capability. Following, It should be our SD-10. Then AIM-120A/B, R-77, Active Skyflash at equal fourth. Then Israel’s Derby, Derby has a comparable overall performance with the above missiles, but its range is relatively short. Last of all, MICA, its tech is not bad, however it’s a tradeoff between BVR and dogfight, so is naturally inferior to dedicated MRAAM.Reporter asked : Our SD-10 has a good ranking. Why do you say our SD-10 is more advanced than R-77?
Designer: We adopted some technologies more advanced than R-77’s, so SD-10’s overall performance is better than R-77’s. For instance, our strap-down initial navigation system, signal processing system are more advanced than R-77’s. Our missile was developed relatively later than R-77.Some new technologies were not mature when R-77 was developed, so R-77 didn’t use the new technologies, but when SD-10 was developed, the new technologies became mature, so we adopted the new technologies in SD-10.SD-10’s milestones:
Designer: We started the pre-research work for advanced radar guidance air to air missile in mid of 1980….
Phase1:mid of 1980 to beginning of 1990, key technologies study
Phase2;Started from mid of 1990, sub-systems development
Phase3:Started from end of 1990, missile overall performance verification test
Phase4:After entering 21st century, demo verification test
Now, the development of SD-10 has been completed.”
moon_lightMoon
May i ask what a diference between the Vympel RVV-MD and the MBDA Meteor of 5 kilos in weight and 6 cm in lenght are suposed to mean in relative terms of lethality?!
RVV-MD also have bigger diameter as well so it will have
1-bigger diameter => stronger radar => longer detection , track , lock range , harder to jam
2-heavier , and longer => carry more fuel so can go longer , bigger NEZ
Now you lost me, we were talking of the latest generation BVR AAM´s, right?!
If not, well, a Bristol BloodHound had a range of +85 km and weighted +2 tons, both of these are interesting numbers, because, well… they are totaly irrelevant?
what i mean is bigger and heavier doesnot necessary mean less agility
?!
Well, if you are not impressed with the Raptor, i surely was/am!
That beast combines mach 1.7 supercruise, 9G´s, a LO airframe, a big AESA set, etc… And it was flying in 1997!
f-22 sure a great aircraft but it seem that it is way overrated
in 1997 it may be incredible but in future ??? , and without irst the F-22 will be blind when it fight J-20 , T-50 , or even the F-35
moon_lightF-35 v F-22 becomes a battle between their primary sensors, the ASQ-239 and ALR-94 respectively. The difference between the two systems is 15 years of hardware technology. The software for each is very similar (BAE is the supplier for both and percentage of software reuse is extremely high, the big difference is ADA (F-22) v C++ (F-35)).
The edge will go to the system that gets the first sniff of the opponent’s data link F-22’s IFDL or F-35’s MADL. The big difference is relative altitudes with F-22 at their 60Kft sweet spot and F-35 at 35Kft.
like i said before , to target F-22 , the F-35 will use it’s EOTS rather than APG-81 so ALR-94 have no work here , and the altitude of F-35 is 60kft vs 65kft for the F-22 so that not very different , F-35 vs F-22 will create the same situation like F-22 VS F-15 ,IF the pilot dont know where is their target , then they will get shot down
moon_lightDue to the missile’s paltry agility when speed dropped off,
it becomes critical to get a high initial speed,
and F-22 can be expected to have twice the speed as F-35,
and so will F-22’s missiles have twice the initial speed,
increasing the reach by 50%.
On top of that, the combined speed & agility of F-22 makes it nigh immune to any BVR missile, even if said missiles against all odds still have top speed.
F-22 speed doesnot mean anything here as the F-35 can lock and attack F-22 from 80 km by it’s EOTS while APG-77 can only do the same to F-35 at 20-30 km , the higher speed of F-22 in fact make it easier for the missile to hit target
the service ceiling of F-35 is 60,000 ft , the service ceiling of F-22 is 65,000 ft not much different and not to mention that at high altitude aircraft are not very maneuverable due to the lack of lift
and even the mig-25 could be shot down i dont think f-22’s speed can make it immune to missiles ( if you turn hard then your speed decrease )
moon_lightThe MBDA Meteor its actualy slightly longer and heavier than the Vympel R-77 wich is very, very slightly bigger than the AIM120D.
In terms of size these three are on the same spot.
Then we have to ask ourselves whats a K-100? Its the Novator KS-172? The Vympel K37M? The Vympel RVV-BD?
But lets think about it, does a 600 kg, radar guided, long range aam look particulary useful to deal with a LO/VLO, supersonic, 9G platform?!
No, i dont really think so.
There´s this thing called the “F-22 Raptor” in the USAF to deal with high end ATA threats.
And even if the Raptor is not present, the mix of LO/VLO, cutting edge sensors, evolved network, mach 1.6, 9G´s and the D Amraam make the F-35A a very, very unpalatable adversary for everyone.
firstly , aim-120 is 152 kg , have a diameter of 180 mm , length of 3.7 m , the RVV-MD is 190 kg , have diameter of 200 mm , length is 3.71 m , the Meteor is 185 kg , have diameter of 178 mm , length is 3.65 m
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA_Meteor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-77_%28missile%29
so it seem that R-77 is the biggest and heaviest of the 3
secondly , the 9M96E2 missile (S-400 ) is 420 kg , and can reach 120 km when fire from ground ( air launch may reach 200-> 400 km ) ,also radar guide and it is very deadly against any fighter , so i dont think weight is a problem
finally , F-16 equipt with 4 Ale-50 and alq-184 is hardly an high end threat , more than that iam not very impressed with the F-22 , in fact the F-22 lack of IRST making it very vulnerable against another stealth fighter , so if the F-22 , and F-35 go head to head , 99 % the time the F-35 will get the first shot , fire all of it’s missiles and come home before the raptor know any things ( due to EOTS ) and even if the fight go WVR i dont really think the F-22 will enjoy much advantages as it dont have JHMCS , DAS or DIRCM like the F-35
moon_lightYes, bigger usually = larger tank, but then bigger usually also mean more drag.
On top of this comes the biggest concern tho, bigger = more weight,
which means an increase in momentum, which in turn means much less agility,
and this is critical vs any semi-decent fighter with MAWS.IMO russian missiles tend to have rather powerful control surfaces,
but these surfaces also dramatically reduce range in every turn.
The resistance in a turn is several-fold that to just flying straight,
and so speed drops in a heartbeat, and with it, the resistance/agility for another turn.I like the russian concept of 2-stage SAM/AAM, where the first stage just boost,
and the 2nd stage, now lighter & much more agile, do the hard work of maneuver.Don’t dismiss APA, he is knowledgeable even if not entirely neutral,
but then who is?
Do u know why missile like THAAD , PAC-3 , SM-3 ,NCADE can’t be use against AWACs or even Intercepter like mig-31 ? ( i mean aircraft like mig-31 or SR-71 fly very high and fast , they doesnot seem to have much agility either (like a big , slow missile ) so they should be the idea target right ?
moon_lightAnd even the mig-25 which have missiles like r-33 did shotdown f-18 one time ,and f-35 and f-18 manuver are quite the same
One more thing from some source i have read r-27 have better agility and effective range than r-77
moon_lightI know some of the comment on APA are quite stupid ( mostly to attack the F-35 ) but they have some good point too ( i think )
Can you gave me the source on where it say r-77m project is dead ? ( just curious caused i can’t find it )
If iam not wrong then Aim-120d , meteor , f-35 are all not in service too , and the new russian missiles seem to be much bigger than aim-120d or meteor so i really think they have better range ( bigger motor )
And what about k-100 ( they claim can hit target that can do 12g ) , the R-37M claim to be able to shot down combat aircraft , so in some way they can be quite deadly to the f-35
Dont misunderstanding me , i really think f-35 is a good aircraft but it carry too little missiles :confused: , and even the f-16 can carry at least 4 ale-50 ( more if it use alq-184 so what will happened to f-35 if it run out of missile ( carry missile out side will give f-35 rcs equal to f-16 , or may be f-15:confused: )
moon_lightBut the F-22 and F-35 should keep the target within its radar’s field of view until the AMRAAM goes active.
The enemy have to do it too , and even against enemy fighter having rcs= 0.1m2 equipt with a powerful irst that can target out to 80 km , the f-35 can still launch it’s missiles 22 sec earlier than the enemy , not to mention that it have lower rcs that reduce enemy missile’s seeker lock range , the only problem is if the enemy can successful evade 4 missiles ( by jamming , chaff , towed decoy ) then it the end for F-35
moon_lightEasily bank away, only a VLO with poor maneuverability & speed, aka UAV,
should try otherwise
The F-35 doesnot seem to be faster than t-50 or f-15SE , EF-2000 ,rafale ( actually seem to be much slower ) , against su-35s or f-16 the speed may be the same => running not really good option
moon_lightASQ-239 can detect, classify and locate emitters (e.g. Zaslon or Irbis) at several hundred kilometers. A couple F-35s in mutually supporting formation can produce target quality tracks in seconds. This allows the F-35 to avoid/bypass DCA or spring an ambush. F-22 employs similar tactics using its ALR-94.
If iam not wrong information from RWR could not be used to lock an air target ( hts on f-16 can track f-14’s radar from very far but can’ t target them like the way it do with ground radar ? , dont know why ) , and one more thing no RWR seem to be able to track , located AESA radar
moon_lightStrongest radar (on fighter ) nowaday like zaslon-m and irbis-e can detected , track f-35 (rcs = 0.0015 m 2 ) from 39-50 km , targeting pod like ATFLIR or Sniper-XR can detected , track , target f-35 from 70-80 km , irst like ols-35 ( on su-35s ) or Osf ( on rafale ) can target f-35 from 20-30 km ( due to weaker LFR ) , irst like Pirate ( ef-2000 ) or aas-42 (f-15k , F-14 ) can’t target enemy due to the lack of LFR
APG-81 on f-35 can “track ” target with rcs = 10 m2 from 300 km , target with rcs = 0.1 m2 from 90 km , EOTS have same ability with sniper-xr
So it seem that f-35 while can have huge advantage against EF-2000 , rafale , su-35s ,f-15k , mig-31bm in bvr , it doesn’t seem to have much advantage against F-18E/F ( may be it can launch missiles about 25 sec earlier ? 90 km vs 80 km )
Am i right ?
moon_lightWell, the future of BVR missile is the BVR IR missile, because there is no stealth against heat emissions; and jets do heat up a lot during a combat flight.
Ir missile’s seeker have very short range , and secondly f-35 have dircm in the future ( may be even a 100 kw laser weapon ) , not sure about f-22 , t-50
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