kev 99The problem with that argument, Kev, is that the C-3 would not only have a Mk8 gun, but also likely a pair of the REMSIG (or preferably SIGMA) 30mm guns, plus lighter weapons, e.g. GPMGs, .50cals etc… The Mk8 can do pretty much anything the 57mm can do for surface targets, and frankly, as Jonesy points out, the main gun is very unlikely to be used against air targets.
I’ll concede the point about the REMIGs but they can only engage 1 target at a time and if there are a lot of them then you want as many weapons as possible that can be bought to bare to finish them as quickly as possible.
As for the Mk8 gun being as effective as the 57mm, well as Jonesy has already agreed for the sort of work the LCS is doing in the littorals its much better suited than the 5″62 cal, I’d expect it to be superior to the Mk8 for much the same reasons, the C3 will also be spending much of its time in the littorals. Its not a fleet unit so I wouldn’t expect it to be armed with a fleet units main gun.
kev 99That would be an entirely correct statement. The 57mm would be likely to be the superior weapon for engaging speedboats and that kind of threat….especially in concert with the Bofors intelligent ammunition.
That doesnt mean anything for C3 though as C3 isnt a warfighter. There is little need for C3 to actually engage a swarming small boat threat with direct fire. If there are few targets in number the REMSIG’s are very effective weapons and for larger, PG type, vessels that may be mounting a larger calibre weapon the 114mm offers decent range and weight-of-shell. IF the threat is that likely to fit the 57mm best the C3 has the luxury of leaving the danger zone where the LCS, as a combattant, is probably going to be expected to engage and destroy the targets.
Why is there no need to engage the small boat threat? The C3 still has to complete its mission, with a MK110 the C3 can turn the small boat threat to splinter and fish food in quick time and carry on with its purpose, what you are suggesting is for it to depart the area and wait for backup, when, with the right tool for the job it doesn’t need to. If the C3 is operating in littorals then chances are those small boats could appear from within an enclosed bay with little warning, would the C3 get a chance to use the MK8’s greater range in this case? Does it need the extra weight of shell? If it does we’re probably back to my original point about sending the right ship to do the job.
Speedboats, Boston Whalers etc are pushed to beat 30knts if there is even a slight chop. I did my powerboat handling training in 5.5m RHIBs and can tell you that, with throttles cracked open, at 30-35knts you are hanging on for grim death and not aiming a weapon with any kind of accuracy. So if your C3 gets contacts at horizon range and can motor off at 25knts its probably 15-20nm offshore before the small boats can cause any real harm. If you are driving a speedboat in to such an attack you probably dont want to stray too far over the visual horizon from your shore for obvious reasons!.
Okay that’s fair enough but what if the intention isn’t for those speedboats to fire weapons at the C3, what if the intention is to get close enough to it to detonate explosives? the scenario isn’t that unlikely and in the littorals where C3 is likely to operate it may not get the luxury of a contact at horizon range, in such a case there’s every chance that the C3s escape route is cut off and it has to fight.
This is what is leading me on to the general point about what is required of a forward deployed patrol ship. This kind of vessel is going to perform its taskings under peacetime conditions for, you would reasonably expect, more than 90% of its service life. So the ability to shoot down incoming BrahMos missiles is less significant than its ability to create coercive influence.
Taking an embassy/civils evac mission similar to Lebanon 2006. The first responder is likely to be a unit in or near the theatre of ops – a C3 on patrol tasking could easily be that first responder. If you have nothing more than a direct fire weapon (30-57mm) you are fair game to any militia that has its hands on a couple of BM-21’s. The big grey boat flying the White Ensign in the harbour is a PR opportunity and only minimal threat. If that big grey boat is mounting a dirty great cannon on the front, with 25kms of range, firing 45lb shells then a pause for thought would be likely.
You made the point earlier on in the thread about sending a gunboat to do gunboat diplomacy, I completely agree with that but now you’re suggesting sending an OPV? Why? Because it can do shore bombardment with a MK8 on what is in all likelihood a civilian area? If the area is that hot that any sort of action against a warship is likely then we’ve sent a C3 where a C2 should be. Plus of course if we’re really doing civilian evacuation then you’d expect a warship with the capacity to take a useful number of passengers or an amphib or other large ship to be sent and you wouldn’t expect that without a proper escort.
There’s also plenty of sneaky and ingenious methods of causing damage to a warship in port many of them more effective than land based artillery fire, the small boat threat inside a cluttered port could appear at any time with very little warning, if someone really wants a crack that bad chances are they will.
The same coercive value has been seen in antidrug ops in the Carribean where several ‘go-fast’ boats have been taught a lesson that running at 40knts for a couple of miles achieves very little when they see three rather large shell-splashes rapidly appear in front of them!.
Warning shots can be done with a smaller calibre weapon too, I don’t see that as much of a reason for installing a big cannon, chasing speedboats can be done more effectively with a helicopter anyway, a chopper with a GPMG can also fire warning shots.
Then there is, finally, the utilisation of the vessel in a combat framework. In combat where would C3 be found?. In the littorals clearing mines with the UUV’s under close protection from a C2 most likely. If a land target came up the C2 would naturally take on the task of engaging it. With a 114mm whats to stop the C3 joining in the shoot?. If the target is in range of course. Just because the ship isnt an Iowa class BB doesnt mean it cant have some effect….and with a Mk8 much greater effect than a 76mm etc. We were always told that an automatic mount like Mk8 was worth 3 full batteries of shore arty. Not something to be sniffed at – if the ship is going to be on the spot anyway!.
You made the point earlier on that the C3 isn’t a warfighter and would turn and run from one threat, but now in the face of another it would stand and fight? In such an expeditionary role chances are there will be other more effective means of engaging an enemy anyway, there’s already the C2 at hand, chances are there are choppers with GPMGs and possibly guided rockets or other ordinance on hand to identify and engage the target as well as spotting for the C2s fire anyway.
Seems to me what is boils down to is this: The 57mm MK110 is a more effective means of a vessel protecting itself from seaborne and other targets in the particular environments that the C3 will operate; in littorals. The MK8 has more utility for offensively engaging land targets.
Personally I’d rather have the weapon system that contributes to the survivability of C3 and leaves the role of blowing stuff up in shore to C1/C2, LACM, Choppers, fast movers etc.
kev 99+1 for Hummingbird, it can lug about a useful cargo load too.
kev 99Managed to find the SSGT factsheet on BMT’s website if anyone wants it:
http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/Documents%20&%20Resources/?/188/270/270
kev 99Jonesy
Simply because the LCS is meant to be a warfighter and is anticipated as having to fight back the swarming small-boat threat and needs something to back up RAM. That scenario doesnt apply to C3 as, in a major threat scenario, a C3 would have CAAMS backed by REMSIG to cover any air threat while it headed out of theatre, or toward the protction of the fleet, at the rush.
Since you didn’t specifically state why the 57mm was chosen for LCS over the 5″62cal I can only surmise that it is more effective against the small boat threat you’ve outlined.
By calling the LCS a warfighter does that mean that C3 isn’t? If so why does it need a Medium calibre gun at all? All it would need is a similar fit to Clyde. If C3 is a warfighter what is it going to face to justify the inclusion of an MCG? I can’t see it doing shore bombardment or getting into a gun battle with an enemy corvette or similar so why a MK8? If the C3 is on patrol or deployed forward in theatre practically the only logical threat it should ever face is the very one you’ve said it wouldn’t; small boats! if that is the case and for whatever reason a C3 can’t leave the area in time then in closer quarters the better weapon I strongly suspect to be the 57mm Mk110.
Answer is we would throw it away for something offering considerably more useable performance. That is the 155 on gunline vessels. For T45 and C3 that doesnt apply though!. No matter what C3 is not going to get 155 so it means throwing the Mk8 away for a system that offers no more useable mission capability and, in some regards, far less.
Throw it away for something which offers more useable performance for the JOB IN HAND. MK8 may well be a viable weapon for a frigate or destroyer but doesn’t seem to offer much to a C3, there’s no real reason for it to be shooting at anything that requires the range or punch of a MK8 and if it did chances are you should of sent a larger vessel in its place. In short I can’t really see much useable mission capability in installing a MK8 on a C3, its overkill, kind of like putting a Lamborghini engine in a Ford Cortina.
kev 99Do you really need the extra size provided by the Merlin vs the NH90 for CSAR and sea ops? For CSAR maybe, but for sea ops the bigger size may be a liability as a Merlin is surely going to take more hangar space on ship. Maybe it would be more useful to have several smaller aircrafts like Lynx.
Nic
Ocean generally carries a few Lynx as well as Sea Kings anyway, the extra size of the Merlin means it can carry more, plus of course its already got a folding tail and rotors anyway.
kev 99Isnt the issue there ‘sooner or later’ though?. What if it is later?. The mod0 gun has been in service over three decades and that was a modest mount at the most optimistic description. The mod1 cant be expected to be less viable when it is a very much better mounting.
If 114mm Mk8 mod1 is still a viable weapons system till at least the mid 2030’s and we have a developed logistics and support infrastructure in place why bother replacing it on ships that dont need the 155?. Just because Mk8 is ‘supposed to be replaced by 155’ ?!. Lunacy!!!.
T45 already has Mk8 mod1. It wont be replaced by 155’s for a very long time if at all. Putting a smaller MCG on C3 means 3 calibres to support and the smaller gun offers nothing that the C3 needs….so I ask you why bother with it?.
I don’t see your reasoning at all.
I am saying there is no point in installing a 114mm if the RN want to replace it with a 155mm, it’s a waste of money, it would involve paying money out to install something at build, then paying money out to have it removed and then replaced with something else when they could of just installed what they wanted in the first place.
The Mk8 mod 1 might be a viable weapon but having a logistics and support structure in place is no reason for continuing to use something that the operator intends to change, and if it was a valid reason then the user would never change at all, they would continue to use the same piece of kit forever.
The MOD have already stated that a number of systems will be installed on T45 on an incremental basis throughout the next decade, therefore there will be an opportunity for installing the 155mm, should the final decision be made to move over to it wholesale.
If the C3 gets a smaller calibre gun then the MOD will only be supporting 3 calibres for however long it takes to phase out the 114mm completely, that might take a few years but if the 155mm programme is successful then its going to have to bite the bullet and certainly support 2 for a while at least.
Will someone please educate me as to what advantage, specifically for the C3 mission – so not using the words anti-aircraft – that the 57 or 76mm gives the ship that justifies the purchase of the weapons and the establishment of an RN logistics and support chain?
I’m not knowledgeable enough about such matters to answer this but I do have a related question: why are the US Navy installing the 57mm on LCS instead of the 5″62 cal?
kev 99There seems to be a general view that the Mk8 mod1 will be somehow old and outdated by 2020.
Not from me, but I certainly don’t see the point in fitting something to a ship class that won’t be built for at least a decade when there is already a stated intention to replace it with something else. Sooner or later the MK8 mod 1 if chosen for the C3s would have to be replaced by the 155mm upgrade anyway, so what’s the point of fitting it in the first place? you would just be creating work for no real reason. It would make more sense to fit the 155mm in the first place or chose something else for C3.
kev 99Except that the C-3 isn’t a current user of any gun, it is still very much on the drawing boards. The Mk8s, whether in 114mm or upgraded to 155mm, will be in service for many years to come. I don’t see why we should be adding yet another gun type to the inventory, just for the C-3s. If the C-3 is to be around the 3,000 ton mark, as the BMT design seems to suggest, then the Mk8 should be perfectly viable.
Well the 114mm looks like it will be going by the time C3 is being built so it would be pointless fitting it, so its the upgraded Mk8 155mm, personally I think this is too much gun for an OPV.
kev 99Then why did Italy purchase the NH90?
Except that it looks great that is
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photos/farnboroughairshow2008/images/17051/nhi-nh90.jpg
Nic
Yes, but so does the Merlin (although not quite as great).
Probably cost I Would think.
kev 99All very true but the C3 isn’t a current user of Mk8’s and if the programme to upgrade to 155mm goes ahead by the time the C3s start being built the MK8s will be being replaced anyway.
kev 99Thats what they said about the Mk8 mod1 replacing all the mod0 guns. That hasn’t happened either!. The intent may be, eventually, for the 155 to be the standard escort mount but that means little in reality!.
Thing is though sooner or later if that is the stated aim then the Mk8 is going to be done away with, if that is the case what is the point in fitting a MK8 to C3? Does anyone think a 155mm is a sensible option for C3? Seems massively overkill to me.
kev 99It was my understanding that the Mk8 was intended for replacement by the 155mm across the entire Escort Fleet?
kev 99Not so on the Mk8 mod 1. We’ve not yet got it fully across the escort fleet yet I dont think!. The T45’s will be keeping it for a good while as well.
That’s all very well but the plan is too replace it with BAE’s 155mm, what’s the point of installing a MK8 mod 1 on C3 when the intention is for it to be replaced anyway? What sort of timeframe are we talking about for C3?
kev 99I wonder whether it might be better to just stick with the standard Mk8 gun, rather than need to introduce either the 57mm or 76mm (which hasn’t been in RN service for quite some time). The Mk8s would give a healthy degree of commonality with all the other ships in the fleet, and the ability to take advantage of any new ammunition developed for the other ships in the fleet. I don’t think there is much benefit to putting a smaller gun on the ships just because they don’t ‘need’ anything larger.
The other minor point would be with regards to the hangar; I would like to see them given the extendable shelter to support Merlins if necessary. I know FLynx is the planned helo for these ships, but the ability to carry a Merlin where necessary would be useful. I don’t like the idea of deliberately designing them for a smaller helo, assuming that carrying a Merlin will never be necessary.
Shouldn’t the MK8 be going out of service by the time C3 comes into service?
The point about the hangar is a good one, RN share of the Future Lynx/Wildcat order is only 25.
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