TEEJApologies if I am wrong here or that it has already been revealed, but does anyone notice a similarity between Milmascaras and poster MiG-23MLD?
Is Milmascaras simply a re-invention of user MiG-23MLD? (Previous identity Flogger)
Strange how MiG-23MLD made his last post on 29th January 2009 and Milmascaras popped up 31st January 2009 and straight into a thread about MiG-23s? MiG-23MLD also revealed a Mexican connection.
TJ
TEEJLonevolk wrote,
On the second (damaged) F-117…
birdstrike? ….just like the F-16 was “engine malfunction” 🙂
What’s the source for the birdstrike story?
You are mixing up details. It is time to update your old beliefs and facts. The USAF acknowledge that it was SAM debris that ingested the engine. That is where the engine malfunction comes. The audio of the downing and subsequent rescue was released shortly after when the rescue team received their awards.
http://www.f-16.net/news_article2167.html
‘The SAM launch sites had proved to be a constant threat in Serbia, disappearing and reappearing. This one appeared right under the squadron’s route as it flew into Belgrade, Serbia, on a night mission to destroy enemy air defenses. The missile destroyed Goldfein’s engine.
“I became a very expensive glider pretty quick,” said the 47-year-old Goldfein, now a brigadier general in command of Holloman Air Force Base, who recounted the incident last week. He saw the flak clouds from the anti-aircraft fire that was trying to zero in on his damaged plane.
He felt a stinging sensation on his hand and he looked down to find blood welling from a minor shrapnel injury, said Goldfein, who then commanded the 555th Fighter Squadron and led the first of many missions of Operation Allied Force over Serbia…….’
TJ
TEEJMiG-23MS was in production 1973-78 and deliveried to Algeria (40 from 1978), Egypt (8 1974-75), Iraq (18-40 1974-76), Libya (40-54 1974-76) and Syria (60 delivered 14 Oct 73-76).
Source for Syrian dates and numbers was a MiG-23 article by Tom Cooper.
If I was writing a work report or university assignment I’d have to provide sources for every statement – if I wanted to avoid a charge of plagrarism and form a well rounded argument. Same story for the Internet, theres a lot of useful information out there, but much is repeated verbatim from other websites – its a little hard to gauge the truthfulness without knowing the source. The web or an article is a secondary source – they are written from other sources. The actual source (media or press briefing) is the primary source.
For example Jon Lake writes article (without referencing the RAF retiring the Jaguar!) for Air Forces Monthly on the Eurofighter. He gives the new weight of the Tranche 2 fighter. He is journalist and knows he cannot make stuff up. AFM, like many magazines, doesn’t have room for listing every source. The magazine editor has to trust the journalists. Jon Lake was good enough to reply on the source of the Tranche 2 weight – a Eurofighter briefing (primary source).
The ‘Australian report’ (what do us Australians know about air warfare? Carlo Kopp has ruined us!) lists no sources.
The Airpower article: http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj02/sum02/lambeth.html
lists the source as “David A. Fulghum, “Kosovo Report to Boost New JSF Jamming Role,” Aviation Week and Space Technology, 30 August 1999, 22 (PG: page 22?)”I lack access to the AWS&T, so thats as far as I can go with validating, but I did search through World Air Power Journal Volume 38 Autumn/Fall 1999, page 22, ‘Operation Allied Force. The First 30 days’ by Robert Hewson: “Friday 2 April: Croatian and Yugoslavian sources allege that a damaged F-117 had to make an emergency landing in Zagreb, Croatia after operations on the night of 9/10 April.”
Make what you will of the statement.
1) Am I telling the truth?
2) Is the article telling the truth?
3) Are the article sources truthful?Its a well written article as he gives sources for most of his statements, he even points out where Western sources, with hindsight, were incorrect.
Peter,
The F-117 Zagreb landing was an April Fools joke played out on Zagreb Radio. Some Yugoslav sources picked up on the broadcast and before long it became an actual event . Russian news agencies also picked up on it and it became a ‘fact’.
TJ
TEEJAhh Venik, what a wonderfully imaginative character he was, is he still about?
Yes he’s still about. He popped back into life during the Georgia crisis. He still believes!
Venik wrote during 2008 on Google Groups rec.aviation.military on the hidden NATO losses.
“Pentagon is still keeping secrets from the WWII era. Relax. Watch your
health and eat lots of carrots. Maybe you’ll live enough to hear an
official admission of the truth, if that what constitutes the ultimate
proof in your mind.”
TJ
TEEJOne is actually Australian
Kosovo and the Continuing SEAD Challenge
Dr. Benjamin S. LambethRevisiting the Lessons of Operation Allied Force
by Martin Andrew, BA(hons), MA, PhD, RAAF(Retd)And it was also mentioned in a AFM issue at the time
The one we’ve been talking about…
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1480058&postcount=32
No it doesn’t.
It’s an official claim by the Iraqi AF…..to this day!
The pilot of the Mig-29 was later shot down himself, with the USAF claiming 2 x Mig-29s when in fact he was the only one.
Kapedani, why don’t you go back to the sand pit and play with the rest of the kids….I haven’t got time for dipsticks
But is it an official claim? Where is the evidence that the named pilot was credited with the kill? During the 1990s Russian and Ukrainian mags popped up with these fantastic claims. Kapedani is quite right. Zampini with his conspiracy mindset simply turned certain incidents into confirmed air-to-air damage and losses. His articles translated into Russian are now set in stone and believed as fact by many desperate individuals.
TJ
TEEJTEEJ,
don’t get carried away with Zampini and various conspiracy theories when you yourself CANNOT know for sure about various claims until official documents are released.
The ones I posted are credible claims with dates, names and place…..they don’t sound like wild exagerations to me. On the contrary to my eyes, the claims that there were no air-air kills sound like propaganda if you take in consideration that there were some large scale battles taking place.
On the Serbian claims in 1999….
Recently, the commander of the Serbian AF in his book has presented official figures about losses. He clearly states that there is clear evidence for only 2 Nato aircraft that fell on Serbian territory but believes it likely that more were hit……not some wild figure of 60 or 200 aircraft but a single digit number. The book also has interesting figures on the losses of Serbian radars.
Zoltan Dani to this day still claims that his unit shot down 3 aircraft instead of the official 2. The 3rd one he says fell over the border in Croatia.
BTW, a second F-117 was damaged by a Neva (SA-3) which has been confirmed by US sources (this is on top of the 3 he claims as shot down)
Lonevolk,
So how are the single digit manned losses being covered up? An aircraft nicked in combat is not a combat loss. Look at the scores of Coalition aircraft that landed damaged during GW1. US sources have not confirmed any damaged F-117. You are relying on the 1999 media reports. Remember that many media sources use the term ‘a pentagon source informed us that, etc’ simply in order to beef up their article. There has never been an official US source or admission from the USAF of a damaged F-117.
Remember you were making the same assumptions back in 2006? You posted info of an F-117 that wasn’t even deployed to Europe.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=55238&highlight=f-117
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=55238&highlight=f-117&page=3
Lonevolk wrote
‘Now for the sake of argument, it’s more than likely that some of the damaged aircraft did crash on the way back to base.’
Again how are the aircraft losses being covered up? Can you not see that you enter the conspiracy world with such claims? Aircraft A is lost in combat.
Explain how that loss is announced and covered up? In 78 days of combat no NATO personnel were killed in combat. A fact highlighted on TV by both Clinton and Blair. How long would such a cover up of combat deaths last under the likes of Clinton and Blair?
TJ
TEEJWhat about the other side what about those supposedly SAMs that shot down F-15s, Tornados and F-16s would not they have made the same mistake:D
Double standards yeah only when is convinient you want to use that logic
do you think this other pilot made the same mistake?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdps1bID-84&feature=related
Yes. They believed that the Exocet had struck its intended target of HMS Invincible and flew towards the smoke on the horizon. During that run in two of their flight were downed by ship based SAMs. The two surviving A-4s attacked the smoke shrouded vessel that they believed was HMS Invincible.
Think about it. HMS Invincible struck by Exocet from Super E and the bombs/cannon from two A-4s. Think about the damage that would have caused? All that damage and resulting casualties yet 801 Squadron were still able to fly off and mount CAPs. 1st June saw the downing of a C-130 by Sea Harriers flown off HMS Invincible. Quite a feat for a carrier that was meant to have been disabled by the attack.
Think of the thousands that would be involved in such a cover up to this day?
TJ
TEEJUK owns its F-4K/M, they were not $-funded. But the F-4Ms were B43 nuclear-capable, so under the Arms Reduction Treaties with (Russia) there is, ah, sensitivity on disposal.
The treaties that covered nuclear capable aircraft are the likes of START/SALT/SORT. These cover heavy strategic long-range nuclear capable bombers such as Tu-160, Tu-95MS, B-52, B-2, etc. Not even UK based F-111s or F-15s come under the nuclear treaties signed with Russia.
The F-4s come under CFE (Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Treaty). F-15s based in the UK are nuclear capable but don’t come under the strategic arms reduction treaties. RAF Lakenheath is monitored and inspected under the CFE Treaty. Not by the Russians now as they have withdrawn from CFE.
List of aircraft under CFE treaty
http://www.dod.mil/acq/acic/treaties/cfe/protocols/exist_equip.htm
TEEJHopefully you’ll be able to see the images taken by an aviaiton enthusiast at Boscombe Down – October 28th.
Of note is a Tornado F.3 carrying out Meteor missile trials. The Tornado was noted returning minus the missile later in the day.
http://www.fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2012
TJ
TEEJYeah now you will resort to the clean and honest media and the evil Ruskies who are dishonest, in 1991 not a single Su-24 was shot down, and having supposedly air superiorty they could not shot down more than 100 aircraft that fled to Iran, you have only this explanation SAMs SAMs SAMs POW POW to addmit losses even TOPGUN is more honest at least there Iceman lost his wing man after defeating 1 MiG hehehe while Maverik shot down 4
And what exactly were the Su-24s doing? Were they bombing coalition forces? No. The Iraqi’s couldn’t adapt to the situation that they found themselves in and chose to flee. Take off and gun it to the border. What is exactly hard about that tactic? How long would they have lasted if they had headed south or attempted to engage Coalition forces?
TEEJhere is a Pilot who did the attack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-belVjN_4x4&feature=relatedbasicly he witness and did the attack what more evidence do you want.
Yes, we know that! Did it ever cross your mind that the pilots in the heat of battle mistook what they saw?
How large do you want the conspiracy theory to be? Hundreds of crew aboard HMS Invincible and still nobody speaking about this attack and damage?
TEEJLet us see your accuracy In GWI
5 F-16s were shot down all SAM, 1 F-14 also SAM, 2 F-15E also SAMs, 1 F-111 also SAM, 5 Tornado also SAM, however the other side says they did shot down some of those aircraft with fighters.
Now Iraq never gave the same numbers the Coallition gave, some people claim up to 20 F-16s were shot down, so you have contradictions, basicly you are too supporting propaganda and doing the same thing you are complaigning
The truth must be something in the middle in terms of reliability both sides used propaganda and claimed different scoresNow let us see these two western webpages
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/f-15.htm#idfaf
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_272.shtml
Do you see they actually support indirectly the Russian claims of F-15s shot down by MiG-23MLs in 1983, by the way Israel also lost an F-4 in January1984
What has them being ‘Western’ got anything to do with it? They are simply putting the info down as possible. That is why ACIG give them colours. The likes of the ejection site and many others websites put them down as actual events.
As with Allied Force there are still people out there that think there are hidden losses of Coalition aircraft in GW1. The Iraqi claims went off the wall yet nobody has found out how the losses are still being covered up to this day. Aviation enthusiasts world wide are still trying to work out how they managed it. All those F-16s missing from the inventory and still nobody knows how they are achieving it? 😉
TEEJMilmascaras wrote
Zampini is not the only one who says that many webapges from argentina say that too, so he s not the only one
Exactly and it proves how gullible they are! Your posting of that link could start a whole thread in itself. Do you believe the info that it contains?
Where do you even start with the claims from the images used in that report? “HMS Invincible during the war” and HMS Invincible returning after the war?
Have a look at some of the imagery that is used as ‘proof’ in that report. The following You Tube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhsH98QgSkk
The claims in that link you posted have been debunked, but are still churned out time and time again as some sort of evidence. It is laughable. The You Tube compilier on the above link sums it all up really with the Benny Hill music!
An example of the idiotic garbage still being churned out in relation to the claims of an attack on HMS Invincible.
TEEJClaims and unclaimed kills/damaged from ACIG
’29 June 1981 F-15 by MiG-25
9 June 1982 F-15 by MiG-21
3 July 1982 F-15 by MiG-21
4 Dec 1983 F-15 by MiG-23′
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_272.shtml
See list of F-15 losses on the following.
‘Israeli F-15 eagle units in combat’
The following link should take you to some snippets of the book
A debate the last time the subject came up on AFM
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4994
Obviously those that are desperate to ‘believe’ will attribute some of those F-15 accidental losses to the combat claimed losses.
You then end up in the world of conspiracy and in the land of the likes of Zampini. You end up with a conspiracy of how the Israelis are hiding F-15 airframes by re-assigning serial numbers for those that were lost in combat.
Where are the original sources for the Syrian claims? The Ghost Writers of the Yugoslav Ministry of Information re-wrote some of the Yugoslav pilots post combat reports purely for propaganda purposes. Consider a possibility that the Syrian claims of F-15s have no substance? Consider a possibility that there are individuals out there who will bend and manipulate information years later in relation to those claims. Years later they compile an article and throw in claims of sources such as “Soviet pilots” “advisors” etc in order to give them some credibility?
TEEJSens,
They are articles from old editions of the Ukranian journal “Aviation and Time”
http://www.aviation-time.kiev.ua/eng/thejournal.php?IDJ=70
———
On the Tornado shoot down I mentioned earlier…
It was a Tornado GR1 shot down by an Iraqi Mig-29 on the 19th January 1991
Details (pilot names and units) on the following pdf. file
http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/victories-iraq-gulf.war.pdf
Lonevolk,
Do some research on Diego Zampini. The source of the loss of Tornado GR1, serial ZA467, comes from Zampini as does the other claims in his participation with Aviacija i Vremja magazine. Zampini is a fantasist in the same league as Venik.
Zampini is still a believer that HMS Invicible was hit by an Exocet and bombed by A-4s in 1982.
http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Falklands/Exocet.html
Zampini is a gullible and naive individual. This was proved during Allied Force in 1999 when he was fed info from Venik and Serb teenagers Mladen Stekovic and Djordje Pavicevic.
A snippet from his original article highlighting the air-to-air claims of the Yugoslav Air Force during 1999.
“Note: This article, like all ones devoted to the Yugoslav side of the
Kosovo’s war, had been created with the valuable information provided by my
Yugoslav friends, Mladen Stekovic and Djorje Pavicevic. I devoted this peace
of work to them, to Venik …….. – Diego Zampini.”
Take a look at the following article by Zampini ‘Knights of King Lazar’
http://artofwar.ru/z/zampini_d_f/text_0580.shtml
For those wanting a laugh it can be translated into English via Google from the URL.
Not a single Yugoslav pilot made any air-to-air claims during 1999. Yet Zampini supports some truely ridiculous claims.
“During the following night the 127th IE managed to take a partial revenge for the losses incurred before. March 25 at 23:30 on Rumoy Serbian pilot Slobodan Peric (Major, piloted MiG-29) caught by surprise – he says – a group of fighters “F/A-18” and, using R-73, caused damage to one enemy aircraft . A few hours later, it became known that the airport Raylovach (Sarajevo) carried out an emergency landing one of the F-15C (USAF). Photographs taken by a local Serb population, visible band of dense white smoke, which had dragged on for air (later the picture was published in Serbian newspaper “Troops”). NATO spokesman (Shen Thompson) commented on the situation at a press conference: “<…> I would like to confirm that this morning, landed at Sarajevo airport, two planes F -15. One of them carried out an emergency landing, the other was to maintain. “
“Evening on March 26 127th IE participated in two air battles, the first of which occurred spontaneously at 17:00 in the seven kilometers south of Pancevo. At this time, Colonel-General Ljubisa Velikovich (no one else, as assistant commander of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Air Force and Air Defense Forces) carried out a test flight, piloting the MiG-29B (N18105). The General wanted to see for myself in a poor state aircraft squadron. Suddenly, he was warned that a group of F-16 (USAF), accompanied by several aircraft “Tornado” (the Luftwaffe), staged an attack on the air defense system in the vicinity of Belgrade. Using unnoticed Velikovich approached the F-16C (N88-0490), piloted by Captain Michael J. Ryder, and, after several attempts to get to work the system of an SN-29’s own plane, shot down an American missile R-73. (Ryder, ejected and was evacuated). U.S. military claimed that the loss of the aircraft occurred during the incident in Arizona, but the GRU reiterate that this fighter was actually shot down in Yugoslavia. Velikovich was not destined to survive this war: the general was killed June 3 during an air attack.”
F-16 88-0490 wasn’t even deployed to Europe, but still Zampini believes in fantastic cover up tales.
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/BASES_USAF/LUKE/luke_afb.htm
“21 May 1999 MiG-29B destroyed by fire from a cannon (GSh-301) UAV “Hunter” (NAV211, the U.S. Armed Forces), ten days later the same fate befell the German UAV CL-289″
“Despite the fact that the 127th was able to destroy the IE “only” six enemy aircraft (three F-16, two F-15 and one F-117) and two UAVs, provided it incurred losses”
To Zampini everything is a cover up. Even though not a single Yugoslav pilot made any air-to-air kill claim he attributes three F-16s, two F-15s, one F-117 and two UAVs all to Yugoslav MiG-29s of the 127th.
Lonevolk,
Do you still trust the info from Zampini on the link that you posted?
TJ
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