ijozicthe real full version of this model
They redesigned the vertical stabs completely? It looks pretty ugly from this angle.
ijozicYak-141 perhaps, if it counts as “experimental”… It was a brilliant thing that just had a load of unfortunate circumstances (and bad decisions) against it
Good call, it was a huge improvement on Yak-38 and would have given those Kiev class ships a new lease on life.
I would add the N/AW A-10B to the list if such variants count. That thing would have made those relatively primitive A-10’s really useful over Germany in the 80’s (especially given the foggy weather there) if the push came to shove.
If not, I’d have to nominate the T-4MS. That thing looks way too cool to not have been great at its job (brushing aside if it could have been really produced by the Soviet Union given their financial problems).
ijozicThe upgraded ones were #24, #25 (ex-015), #26, #27, #28 and 018 before it was upgraded to Ka-50Sh
Thanks, but I’m confused now. Those screens are the Abris screens (as on the Ka-50 in DCS World). Was Abris navigation system integration with Ka-50 then developed by Gefest or what did Gefest system bring to Ka-50?
ijozicAnd the Russian MoD website says it was an emergency landing, not a shootdown.
It was probably an emergency landing, it wouldn’t have landed in the middle of nowhere otherwise. But, it seems that while the Russians were figuring out what to do with it, IS snuck up on them and hit it with some rocket propelled weapon.
ijozicThe NEED to take east Aleppo is IMHO more an external observers assumption than a reality from field: once the Loyalist have secured Castello road and all the Northern part they can put it in stand-by and continue instead their offensives in other parts of Syria
It’s a political need for a big victory by the regime. What contradicts you are the repeated attempts by the regime forces from all 4 directions, but apart from some limited gains in the north and west, they didn’t amount to much yet.
Rebels have actually advanced far more in their counteroffensive on the West Aleppo by using the VBIED’s to great effect apparently.
ijozicMean while, is there any news out of Syria?
The rebel’s are just now renewing their offensive on West Aleppo; the first effort didn’t get very far (apart from taking Al-Assad neighborhood and minor gains in the north part) and potentially the regime is preparing for another big push at taking the East Aleppo. The regime allied forces have also managed to revert a few rebel gains from the large offensive in the Hama countryside, but there’s still a large pocket remaining.
What’s more interesting are rumors of regime preparing to expand towards Al-Bab against IS before the Turkish supported FSA gets there.
You can keep track of such unconfirmed reports on a daily basis for instance here:
ijozicTo correct you, the SVP-24 has also been installed on several Ka-50s.
I wasn’t aware of that, but to be fair those are test and development aircraft and not in operational service. In that regard, there might be a MiG-27M fuselage somewhere used by Gefest to integrate the system, but not sure how far that went as I’d assume that India was the target customer and they went with their own upgrade.
Do you have any more details on those Ka-50 units? I would presume the Gefest LCD screen is used instead of the Abris one for navigation and the benefits are to have the satellite navigation integrated with the main navigational system and probably the WCS, unlike being a separate system like the Abris.
Unlike the old HUD in the Su-24M which needed a replacement, upgrade of HUD might not be required for the Su-33 as the current one (ILS) is able to support the symbology of the SVP-24 (the same type has been kept on the Ka-50s).
True, hence why I used “could” as no details are available and the supposedly recent image taken from above seems to show the old HUD.
ijozicYou did not see or did not understand the SVP-24 brochure I posted in previous post. VM-10 LCD (The bottom right) is for all of aircraft upgraded with SVP-24 such as Su-24, L-39, Ka-50, Mig-27 and Tu-22. This is NOT for Tu-22 only as you thought.
OK, I’ll try for the last time because it’s tiring. Of the planes listed, SVP-24 is only used on the Su-24M and Tu-22M3M (SVP-24-22) and it can use either the TV screen (OR4-TM) or the LCD (VM-10) as the output (along with the HUD). On the Su-24M, only one TV output unit is installed (as it needs to support the output from the older radar unit), on the Tu-22M3M, IIRC two VM-10’s are installed (to replace the existing navigation display presumably, not sure what was presented on the other one).
As for the Su-33, it could be that the HUD is upgraded and that kneepad LCD is used for the navigation map (either as an earlier update or part of Gefest, I have no idea). Until any further information is available, I wouldn’t presume too much.
No thing mess here between two programs. I gave you the sourse that came from Jane’s magazine, talking about SVP-24 and what producer (Gefest & T) said about their product. What else do you need?
“The SVP-24 is specifically designed to integrate satellite-guided weapons and the manufacturer notes it can be used with either the Russian GLONASS or US GPS satellite systems.”(Source: Russia deploys second-generation tactical precision guided munitions * By Robert Hewson – Janes Defense Weekly – 12 October 2009)
And for the tenth time, that’s the SVP-24 which is installed on the Su-24M. Such a feature cannot work on the Su-33 without a targeting pod or an A2G radar for the reasons described earlier. Feel free to keep on harping the same thing over and over again, but I’m all out of masochism.
ijozicDo you have any source to back up for what you say or continue trying to keep your a half of knowledge about SVP-24 & upgraded Su-33?
Back what? The Su-24M Gefest upgrade was discussed already in this thread and you can see the cockpit photos there which show no VM-10 screen. It’s you who has to back your suppositions (VM-10 on the Su-24M, guided weapons on the Su-33, etc.).
Do you want to say some thing about L-150 Pastel that you did not know Su-33s have and though just only be in Mig-31BM?
Apparently you can’t read English well as I’ve said the MiG-31BM DOES NOT have it as an example that not all of the upgraded Russian planes have it by default. Whether the Su-33 has one, I didn’t see any proof yet. AFAIK, it requires an MFD to present its data and I have yet to see an Su-33 cockpit photo showing one or the photos of the changed RWR antennas which I would expect the new system to require.
Being a front-line fighter, it would certainly make sense for the Su-33 to have it, but that’s not enough to presume that it actually does have it.
For you to know more about SVP-24. Below is SVP-24-25 that applied for Su-25 upgrade. The LCD pad displayed in front of Kai-24 HUD is PAC-HT that is the same function with VM-10. Some one said that the upgraded Su-33s also quipped this PAC-HT LCD in the cockpit like Su-25 Gefest & T.
Yes, I saw the Su-33 photo showing the LCD kneeboard which seems to show a navigational map which might or might not be a part of the Gefest upgrade. What exactly is your point?
ijozicWhat do you know much better today? What is too old? Do you say now SVP-24 is getting older and can not guide GPS/Glonass weapons that they could do when younger in 2009?
Do you think you know better than Jane’s reporter who discussed directly with producer of SVP-24?
Do you have any source that confirmed that SVP-24 can not guide GPS/Glonass weapons?
For your incorrection about VM-10 LCD here. Your image is too old that was first generation of SVP-24 for Su-24M over 15 year ago.
Why I have to change when all I said are true and proved by reliable sources?
What did you proved except trying to keep your a half knowledge about the SVP-24 “Gefest & T” as well as the upgraded Su-33?
You continuously fail to understand that there are more variants of the SVP-24 system (depending on the plane it’s used in) even if it’s shown in your own references. E.g. the VM-10 screen you mention is clearly shown as being part of the SVP-24-22 system installed on the upgraded Tu-22M3M bombers.
The interview you mention was talking about the SVP-24 system in general. It doesn’t mean that every part of that system is installed in every upgraded type.
Furthermore, you seem to simply refuse to even try to comprehend what it might take to use guided munitions. For the umpteenth time, the base Su-24M already has a target designation system (an electro-optical TV system and an A2G radar) which allows them to designate the target after which the target coordinates relative to the aircraft can be determined by the SVP-24 system and programmed into the weapon. The Su-33 has no such target designation systems for the SVP-24-33 (I presume this is how it might be called) to get eh target data from so it cannot effectively use such weapons. It’s not nuclear physics, just common sense.
ijozicIn US Navy analogy, 1990’s F-14D airframe is decomissioned some 10 years ago. Carrier operations are harsh.
And all the while some Hornets made before them were and still are flying.. So, the F-14D was not withdrawn due to the airframes being spent, but because the whole Tomcat fleet was withdrawn (even earlier than planned which was initially 2010) and keeping only the odd 55 or so F-14D’s (out of which only 37 were new-built) in service would be too expensive and absolutely pointless with the Phoenix missiles gone and Super Hornets readily available.
ijozicSo do you think Russian have to publish all what they did on Su-33 that not for export and using in Syria now? What did you prove except your own and some ones’s thinking that upgraded Su-33s just have only SVP-24 new?
First of all, it wouldn’t be the same SVP-24 as on the Su-24M, but probably SVP-24-33 (or something in those lines) and thus it can be a subset of the SVP-24 features, depending on what the Su-33 base supports and how much time and money the Russian MOD was willing to invest.
Given all the details available for all the other upgrade projects (including e.g. the MiG-31BM which is definitely not for export) and new aircraft (like Su-35 and MiG-29K), why wouldn’t we have any on such a comprehensive Su-33 upgrade? Thus, it would be reasonable to expect at the very least some information that such a comprehensive upgrade program is approved and ongoing by the MOD. Or you think that the upgraded Su-33’s are Russia’s secret weapon?
Of course, a more comprehensive upgrade is still a possibility, but since you’re the one going way beyond the available information, it’s up to you prove that such things exist, not up to the rest to prove that they don’t.
ijozicYou stated incorrect my information. All those upgrading are basic and inexpensive things that now become basic standard of all Russia upgraded aircrafts such as Mig-29SMT, Su-27SM/SM3, Su-24M Gefest & T and Su-25SM3:
– L-150 RWR/Passive Radar: Besides RWR function, it can find coordinate of radiation targets both on air & surface, feed data to guide air-2-air or anti radiation missiles like Kh-37PS, Kh-31P and Kh-59.
– INS/GPS/Glonass navigation: Besides navigation function, it also provide aircraft’s motion and coordinate to FCS for aiming and calculating as well as GPS/Glonass guided bombs if they want to. However as I mentioned in the last post, upgraded Su-33 with SVP-24 can deliver dumd bomb very accurately so will not need those expensive GPS/Glonass bombs.
– Multi Functional Displays / LCDs in cockpit: Display all aircraft information as well as real-time targets that seen through camera on the head of optronic guided missiles/ bombs like Kh-29T and Kab-500kr/-1500kr for pilot preview, tracking, locking & firing.
– New front OLS IRST to replace old OLS-27K: Besides improving and enhancing air search/ranging functions, it also have ability to find range and guide laser-guided missiles like Kh-25ML and Kh-29L to destroy valuable station or moving targets.
– New or upgraded WCS computer for new weapons.
You keep pasting the same list over and over without any proof that some of this is actually included in the supposed Su-33 Gefest upgrade, but your gut feeling. All those things would be expected to be included (among others like e.g. the radar upgrade) on the rumoured Su-33SM upgrade program, but IIRC this (comprehensive) kind of upgrade wasn’t approved.
Until some photos emerge showing the upgraded Su-33 cockpit with the new WCS, MFD’s, the new OLS, the new RWR and GLONASS antennas, targeting pod, etc. I wouldn’t hold my breath.
ijozicThat might be confusing for some people thinking that it’s the SVP-24 which is responsible for that and that a Gefest upgraded Su-33 can do the same.. Well, IMO it can’t.
Exactly, it reuses the already existing self-designating capabilities of the Su-24M in the form of the air-to-ground radar and the electro-optical system which the Su-33 doesn’t have.
ijozicAll that upgradings incl. SVP-24 “Gefest & T” are not expensive and not complicated. Supposing because Russia has not published what they did to modernize Su-33 and what it can do after that.
You should learn more to avoid speaking stupidily like your states above
Exactly, they haven’t published anything but a mention of a dumb bomb improvement and this is as far as we should presume. Anything involving self-designated use of smart bombs would have required a development airframe and long integration tests and some info would have probably leaked by now.
I never said Gefest system is that expensive by itself, but you mentioned a whole lot of stuff which would require a serious upgrade program which takes time and money.
What’s the point of these two images? That the Su-25SM3 upgrade program includes Pastel? Why wasn’t it included on the Su-25SM if it’s such a straightforward upgrade? Or on the MiG-31BM? Or on the Gefest upgraded Su-24M for that matter? Or better yet, don’t bother answering.
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