PilotGIT,

I was interested that you couldn’t challenge any of the points made, except my cheeky claim that Rolls make: “the best civilian turbofan engines in the world.”

Your diagram may show the Market share of engines in service, perhaps. But what is acknowledged as the engine of choice for aircraft being built and sold today, where fleet commonality/common support isn’t an issue?

In any case, I said best, not best selling.

You call me chauvinistic and narrow minded when your argument is that Rafale is better than Typhoon because it is French, and French industry is better than UK industry. You’re wrong on both counts, and you’re the one who is being nationalistic and xenophobic to a moronic extent. Which bit of:

“Typhoon isn’t a UK programme. It is also lucky enough to be able to count on magnificent contributions by Germany (your own partner in EADS, Eurocopter, Airbus, Transall, Atlantic, and Alpha Jet), Italy and Spain. And you have the stupidity and arrogance to claim that France can not only guarantee to do better than the UK (which we’ve proved to be an empty claim) but that it can do better than the combined might and excellence of the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain.”

Don’t you understand, monkey boy?

Sealordlawrence,

We don’t attempt many autonomous programmes any more, but the market has changed, and fortunately we’ve concentrated on adding value to world-beating international programmes, rather than being ruled by jingoistic chauvinism and driven into producing mediocre indigenous aeroplanes. Yes Rafale looks beautiful, and is a surprisingly good aeroplane, but its markedly inferior to Typhoon.

And where is France’s Hawk? How many French aircraft have been sold to and licence built by the US? Where is France on JSF? What French technology is on F/A-22?

ALPHA JET, is his name! lol

JSF? F22? just a exemple, both was designed with french expertise and excellence! Dassault systems held more on theirs devlopment than any UK industries on it, lol!

i have a surprise for you, Dassault software even designed and drawn the eurofighter, maybe they gave them a beta release of CATIA bugged, or that typhee ingeneers was too chauvinistics on going against the basis of aerodynamics hints that software was screaming!

Monkey? me?

i like bananas, but with icecream!
but thanks for the insults!
no regards

Listen, my snail-eating chum. It was Fonk and you who brought up the notion that Rafale was better than Typhoon because Dassault (and French industry) was more talented and more experienced than the entire UK aviation industry. It was you blokes who claimed that this experience and expertise was somehow proven by the number of individual projects flown since 1945 – a date you chose because it handily saves you from having to explain the risible performance of French aircraft in 1940, I suspect. On previous threads, it’s been claimed by people like you that the greater sales success of M2K (compared to Tornado, for example), proves the same thing.

You are the idiot who claimed that: “french aerospace industries produced more and more famous while last century, till today!”

You are the person who asked: “british are leader of what aerospace program today?”

In highlighting the success of the UK aerospace sector, we’re merely correcting the facile, baseless, nationalistic tub-thumping that cretins like you and Fonk seem to love.

Leadership is irrelevant, as you’d realise if you look at the best, most advanced and most successful programmes France has been involved with – Airbus, Concorde, Jaguar, Alpha Jet, Transall, Tiger, etc.

But since you ask about Britain’s aircraft industries today.

1) They designed and still build Hawk (the best and best selling advanced military trainer – exported to the USA – the toughest market in the world to crack. Not only exported, but exported in massive numbers and licence built in the USA in preference to domestic alternatives. In doing so, Hawk followed Canberra and Harrier.)
2) They designed and still build Merlin (the best and best selling medium lift helicopter – exported to the USA – the toughest market in the world to crack, and not just exported, but exported as the next Presidential helicopter. And licence built in the USA in preference to domestic alternatives. This is an achievement that Dassault has never come close to emulating.)
3) They designed and still build Lynx (the best and best selling small-ship helicopter)
4) They participate in Typhoon (the best and best selling fourth generation swing role fighter programme)
5) They are the only Level One participant in JSF, which relies on UK design and manufacturing expertise.
6) They are building Nimrod MRA4 (the most advanced maritime recce platform)
7) They have leadership on the Airbus wing – arguably the cornerstone of the aircraft’s success. They are a key partner in A400M.
8) UK industry is responsible for ASRAAM and largely responsible for Meteor. UK industry produces the best lightweight tacR pod in the world (Vinten JRP). UK industry produces the best civilian turbofan engines in the world. UK industry produces the best inflight refuelling pods.

But Typhoon isn’t a UK programme. It is also lucky enough to be able to count on magnificent contributions by Germany (your own partner in EADS, Eurocopter, Airbus, Transall, Atlantic, and Alpha Jet), Italy and Spain. And you have the stupidity and arrogance to claim that France can not only guarantee to do better than the UK (which we’ve proved to be an empty claim) but that it can do better than the combined might and excellence of the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain.

it seems that i was right, chauvinistic and narrow minded, that don’t bother you, lol!
the partners in the programs you pointed will be happy to learn that the aeronautic lackey industry is leader of thier jewel!

typicly english, ha ha ha

will not waste my time to prove you are a dreamer, but i take 20s just give you the world wide engine market share, just as exemple of you stupidity and bias!

it seems that even the snail eaters kick your hass in this domain! :diablo: :diablo: :diablo: :diablo:

I’m sorry I think I’ll have to correct myself upwards, just a little. These are 74 British prototypes/aircraft after WW2, and that is only A-R. I’ll edit soon with the complete list.

Armstrong Whitworth A.W.52
Airspeed Ambassador
Armstrong Whitworth Apollo
Armstrong Whitworth Argosy (A.W.650 and A.W.660)
Miles Aries
Avro Athena
Supermarine Attacker
Blackburn B-48
Blackburn B-54
Beagle B.206
Boulton Paul Balliol
Handley Page Basic Trainer
Short Belfast
Bristol Belvedere
Blackburn Beverley
Miles Boxcar
Bristol Brabazon
Bristol Britannia
Blackburn Buccaneer
Beagle Bulldog
English Electric Canberra
De Havilland Chipmunk
De Havilland Comet (DH.106)
Aerospatiale/BAC Concorde
Airspeed Consul
De Havilland D.H. 108
De Havilland D.H.125
Fairey Delta One
Fairey Delta Two
De Havilland Dove
Westland Dragonfly
Gloster E.1/44
Westland EH101
Fairey Gannet
Miles Gemini
Westland Gazelle
Folland Gnat
Fairey Gyrodyne
Miles H.D.M. 105
Handley Page H.P.115
Handley Page H.P.88
Hawker Siddeley Harrier
Handley Page Hastings
Hawker Siddeley Hawk
Handley Page Herald
Handley Page Hermes
De Havilland Heron
Hawker Hunter
Sepecat Jaguar
Gloster Javelin
Hunting Percival Jet Provost
Handley Page Jetstream
Hawker Siddeley Kestrel
English Electric Lightning
Westland Lynx
Miles Marathon
Miles Merchantman
Folland Midge
Hawker Siddeley Nimrod
Hawker P.1052
Hawker P.1072
Hawker P.1081
Boulton Paul P.111
Hawker P.1127
Boulton Paul P.120
Saro P.531
Scottish Aviation Pioneer
Percival Prentice
Percival Prince
Saro Princess
Percival Provost
Westland Puma
Beagle Pup
Fairey Rotodyne

the french produced 2563 prototypes! lol

it’s nice to write about the 10 version of the poor hawker! lol

how many was produced? 2%? when you don’t produce it, it’s that a challenger are already selling a better stuff, that the rules!

sorry!

1) You base your arguments on the assumption that Typhoon will bleed energy faster than Rafale purely because it has a different wing sweep angle. You extrapolate a general rule about Delta Wings to try and support the specific allegation that Rafale has a better lift/drag/lift ratio. This may be correct, but you cannot know that, and since you don’t have accurate drag figures you can’t prove it. You ignore other factors contributing to overall drag, and you ignore the fact that a CCV will inherently be more aerodynamically efficient than a conventional aircraft, with smaller control surfaces and smaller control surface displacements. You also pretend that the degree of instability in pitch (which means that the aircraft is always ‘trying to turn’, restrained by the FCS) is not relevant.

2) You talk utter $hite about the engine problem, which was explicitely confined to one particular standard of development engine. Unless you know better than Eurojet’s MD, of course…..

3) Typhoon has not been grounded for two years.

4) The aircraft deployed to Singapore were standard Tranche 1 service aircraft. They were not underweight. You make this mistake either because you don’t care about the truth, or because you don’t know the difference between DAs, IPAs, ISPAs and BT/BSs.

5) The Tranche 1 aircraft have never been offered for sale. You confuse what one or two MPs have suggested with what has actually happened. Even if T1 aircraft were to be sold, they’d sell single-seaters, and not two-seaters which they will be so short of.

6) If Rafale is more agile than Typhoon, and if it has all these impressive capabilities, then why do Dassault not have sufficient confidence in them to show them off to the industry at airshow height. Rafale does not have a manoeuvre that it can safely perform at airshow height that gives the same demonstration of capability shown by Typhoon’s HAVV roll. As I said: “what impresses me about the Typhoon display is the way in which it is able to predictably and accurately point the nose off-boresight – a capability demonstrated most obviously in the HAVV roll manoeuvre.” It does this at airshow altitude, at public displays, which demonstrates a degree of confidence in the predictability and ‘repeatability’ of the manoeuvre that Dassault don’t have.

7) “about 10 time as many prototypes designed/flown”. French aerospace in the 1950s and 1960s was an ‘industry of prototypes’ – most of which were interesting but plainly unsuitable or inadequate for production (which is why you relied so heavily on F-100s, F-8s, etc. for the most vital roles). Britain also produced lots of prototypes – including the world record smashing Fairey Delta 2 (ever wonder where Dassault stole the definitive Mirage III configuration from?) and a host of other test, trials and development aircraft. But it also produced the Vampire, Meteor, Venom, Canberra and Hunter – all pretty impressive aircraft and all very successful export earners, as well as the unexportable but excellent Vulcan and Victor, Buccaneer, Harrier, Nimrod and TSR2. UK aerospace also contributed key technologies and design features to Concorde (which was as much Bristol as it was Sud), Jaguar, Gazelle, Lynx, Puma, Tornado. And then there were the airliners – Comet, VC10, BAC One Eleven, BAE 146, 748, Herald, Vanguard and Britannia, and the HS125. To try to paint the UK aircraft industry as inferior to France’s is infantile and silly.

After what I heard today, I’d really, really advise you to stop boasting about Korea…..

where the gazelle was designed by UK famous british ingeneers?? it was sold and build by yougoslavia and westland
http://www.whl.co.uk/history_gazelle_ah_mk1.cfm

the Puma too, build in Uk, RSA, Romania etc..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Puma

do you will claim that westland designed the APACHE? too?

Wrong my friend. I calcualted it with the lowest empty weight for Rafale (9 t). And 90 kN AB thrust is no war setting for EJ-200. War setting is 94,5 kN with AB thrust. It’s really a simple calculation and it can’t be denied. Calculate it for your self!
M88-2 AB thrust x 2 = 15300
We take an empty weight of 9 t, the lowest!
Take empty weight + max. internal fuel load (4700 kg) and you get 13700 kg
so divide 15300 kg through 13700. Result is 1,116788…
And now take 11150 kg for Typhoon + 4950 kg (internal fuel load) = 16100
EJ-200 x 2 = 18360 kg
Divide 18360/16100 = 1,1403726…
You see even with the lowest weight for Rafale Typhoons TWR is better, not much but better but better. And that is not biased or something else it’s a simple fact everyone can calculate for him self!

lol…….

first the T/W ratio is processed in kN!

second where the ej200 is 94kN? need to go to RR web site!

and the eurofighter is 11.350t empty “11.150t was in 2002 since the bird grown”, and the Rafale have 4.5t of fuel!
the Rafale C weight is 9.1t..

after full fuel mean nothing, in AoA you must add an equal abilities weaponery!

so with 8 162kg amraam = 1.3t..for eurofighter
and 8 110kg = 880kgs for the Rafale, mica do both jobs!

9.1t+4.5t+0.88t=14.48t or 142 kN ;155kN/142kN=1.09
11.35t+5t+1.3t=17.65t or 173kN ; 180kN/173kN= 1.04

here is the reality from the same AoA mission efficience

“Quand un avion est beau, il vole bien”

Marcel Bloch dit “Dassault” 1948.

uhmmm when russian penetrate, it’s alway painy, h ahahahaha

But increases drag. Big time.

increase the drag? lol it is profilated like a wing, so even help a bit!

for the weight, go to french defence evaulations pdf, there ares o much i don’t remember wich one is the good one!