swiss F/A-18C vs. german Mig-29

First in 2002 in Switzerland and again this year in Laage/ Germany the Swiss F/A-18 and the German Mig-29 competed against eachother in dogfight and BVR. It seemed that the score ended 1:1. The SAF is now procuring HMS and AIM-9X in a hurry to close the gap. The Germans obviously don’t need to worry, since the Migs are currently being replaced by EF.
What the German visit to Switzerland apparently revealed also was the big maintanance problems of the “Russian diva” at the end of her lifespan. (Bad news for the Polish!). So it doesn’t come as a very big suprise that the Germans are phasing out the Fulcrums prior to the F-4s.

http://www.bw-flyer.de/neu/report/report/schweiz.html

Originally posted by SerbPVO
Ah, so those are the aircraft Bulgaria bought…

Good for them, though, I hope when Serbia & Montenegro decides to buy similar aircraft, they will be domestic-made.

There might be no other choice but buying domestic weapons if the current nationalism/isolationism is going to prevail in Serbia and Montenegro. It would be quite costly, though.

Nice pics

Thanks for your confirmation. The newer models indeed do look more “kinky”, but as you did point out, it’s not the look that counts… ;-).

By the way: Surfing on a Croatian website I noticed that all Croatian PC-9s were listed as grounded under current status. Can anybody confirm and come up with an explanation?

http://www.vojska.net/military/croatia/airforce/equipment.asp

Originally posted by F-18 Hamburger
ooh big scary bulgaria :rolleyes:

good thing you guys saved this thread with some awesomeering Australian and Croatian aviation pics!

Well, I can’t find any fault in the Bulgarians trying to modernize their air force and starting with the obvious, namely pilot training, can you? There’s plenty of money spent less wisely elsewhere, it seems to me.

Originally posted by SerbPVO
Any photos of these aircraft?

(All pictures from the official Pilatus website: http://www.pilatus-aircraft.com)

Re: lol

Originally posted by PILOTGHT
“Contrary to Paul Starobin’s admitedly excellent article (“the French were right”), Pilotght’s posting and yours don’t really contribute to any re-thinking and reconciliation.”

Maybe you claim that France should excuses for the iraq mess!

French did nothing more than advices!

Well, pardon me, but it sure seems you do a little more than giving advice… This looks more like insult to me. Or is this just some odd way to give advice in your corner of the country?

I never asked you or the French in general to excuse their (in)actions.
Please just read what I wrote: It’s unwise to add insult to injury. The USA and Britain are punished enough with the situation they’ve ridden themselves into. By insulting and inflaming them you just reach the opposite of what you want to achieve (namely them rethinking their policy). Insulting them makes them just more stubborn. There’s a growing tendency in their countries to rethink their policy (see starobin article). If you want to strengthen this process, you are advised to use constructive criticism. What you do just strengthens their hardliners.
Is this really so hard to understand?

Peut-être en français: ça ne sert à rien d’ insulter les Anglais ou les Américains. Ils sont punit déjà avec la situation qu’ils ont crée euxmèmes. Si tu les insultes, tu atteins le contraire de ce que tu veux. On remarque que dans leurs pays il’y a une tendence vers réevaluer leurs actions. (Voie article de Starobin) Si tu veux soutenir ce procès, il vaut mieux les critiquer dans une manière constructive. Ce que tu fait aide seulement les “hardliners”
Est-ce que c’est si difficile à comprendre?

What I intended to say is that criticism leads nowhere as long as it is not constructive. Spreading sarcasm will only make the US more stubborn. If we really want to build bridges, we have to refrain from just putting their noses into their **** and offer alternatives instead. If the USA attempts unilateral nation building, it will fail, as Starobin pointed out correctly in his article, since the USA is seen as an occupying force, not a liberator. http://nationaljournal.com/about/njweekly/stories/2003/1107nj1.htm
This is where the UN, (and not only other western countries, but them too) have to step in again.

Bush jnr said going in that the invasion would take place either with the rest of the world (through the UN) or without it… he chose without. He has found he is having trouble and wants the help of the international community (he doesn’t actually need it.

Fortunately it’s not only Bush that makes decisions. Koffi Anan should at least have as much to say. Nation building in Iraq is an international responsibility, even though I agree on that the USA should pay their share (and pay their debts to the UN likewise).
The longer the country is left to the USA alone, the more it will desintegrate and the costlier nation building will become later.

And you think what the muslim world needs to see is the rest of the world not taking the p!ss and laughing at the US and co and instead helping them fill in the hole they have dug for themselves and the Iraqi people. I don’t think so.

I think the muslim world would appreciate an attempt of the other western states to hand over things to the UN again and taking an active role in Iraq nation building together with muslim nations instead of just laughing our heads of. Things are not comical after all…

anyway, good luck in Londonistan and elsewhere guys, u need and will need it, assuming the responsabilities of clowns’ foreign politics

Contrary to Paul Starobin’s admitedly excellent article (“the French were right”), Pilotght’s posting and yours don’t really contribute to any re-thinking and reconciliation. If you really want to change British and American foreign politics, you have to stop adding insult to their injury…

The French had to learn their lesson too in Algeria. It would have been just as useless to be sarcastic about it back then. It only would have made them more stubborn.
Of course the “Coalition of the willing” have ridden themselves into a big mess, but to better it we have to stop rubbing their noses into it, pull up our sleeves and offer our assistance in Iraq nation building.
The muslim world somehow has to see an alternative picture of western nations again, soon. Else we really might end up in a full-blown clash of cultures.