Tiger II

No one there was thinking about any aircraft from China.

Silly us.

No military aviation branch in Argentina operates any Chinese aircraft.

Like the Z-11…

Wilhelm, thanks for those pics and details. It’s a pity we didn’t see the SMR-95 and wingtip hardpoint wing on the Cheetahs.

Some of the ex-Australian Mirage IIIO airframes were refurbished and put back into service by the PAF as part of the ROSE upgrade programme. As part of this, the PAF acquired some “zero” timed wings from South Africa, and installed them on the Australian Mirages. Any idea which wings they were? There’s very few pics that I could find, and what little there is, it’s difficult to identify, e.g. the link below. Also, any ideas on what BVR missile may have been acquired by the PAF to use on their ROSE Mirages from SA? I can only assume A-Darter?

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/pakistanmiragema_1.htm

A-Darter (Agile-Darter) is an agile within visual range AAM that is in the final process before induction next year.
Perhaps SRAAM is more accurate, as it will have a range of about 20km or more.

The only BVRAAM used by South Africa was the R-Darter (Radar-Darter).
This was a joint project with Israel, with their missile called Derby, and South Africas called R-Darter.
There are some differences as far as I know, as when the missile was mature, their paths diverged slightly.
I’ve no idea whether Pakistan got any R-Darters.

Currently, there is a new BVRAAM called Marlin, that is said to be almost ready for industrialisation, and that has within the last 2 months been offered to Brazil for joint production along similar lines to the A-Darter.

The wings on the Pakistani Mirage III’s seem to be the original design, with the leading edge slot.
This is not to say Pakistan didn’t get South African zero-timed wings though.

When the Cheetah first came about, it was specifically said that it had a new wing spar, designed with 50% greater life than the original Dassault spar.
It was specifically said at the time that part or all of the Cheetah upgrades were available for export to Mirage III operators.

Here are the ACW versions.

1 was the in-service Cheetah wing with dogtooth and leading edge extension outside the dogtooth, 2 and 3 were flown. Number 4 was to be the one with the wingtip stations that suffered due to the budget cuts and ending of the programme.

I can’t find anything on the Swiss rocket equipped flights, but I found this rather excellent description over at the SAAF forum that gives a flavour:

The replies have been thick and furious:) Thanks to the Barker family, John Boardman has been in touch with a promise of some more info. In the meantime, I hope Ken Smith doesn’t mind but I’ve taken his excellent response and added bits from people like Piet Roos, Ollie Holmes and John Boardman. On my side, I’m tied up with work so it is a bit rushed but I hope I can do this bit of history some justice!

The Mirage III’s were originally bought with removable rocket motors, which would have allowed the aircraft to fly in excess of 75 000 ft. The operational tactic was for a head-on interception of a high level intruder with the Matra 530 EM missile. The idea was to accelerate to mach 1,6 at 36 000 ft and then initiate a climb with rocket motor towards the target. After lock-on and within firing range to do a half roll and fire the missile. The SAAF pilots who received this training in France were were Cliff Melville, John Boardman, Sakkie vd Merwe & Gawie van Dyk all from 2 Sqdn plus Ed Pienaar who was the Air-Attache at the time in Paris. During the course in France they each did two rocket-assisted flights. With the rocket motor pack installed you “lost” almost 200 Imp Gal of fuel (rear bay tank and gun-pack tank), thus you started with only 480 Imp Gal of available fuel.
The sortie consisted of a max afterburner(PC) climb to +- 36 000 ft (this height was determined by the height of the tropopause on that day). Then a max PC level accelleration to M 1.6. On reaching 1.6 the rocket motor was ignited (it gave you a nice kick as at that altitude the rocket motor virtually doubled your thrust) then pull up into a 25 to 30 degree climb maintaining M 1.7 (the rocket motor had fuel for approx 80 seconds). When the rocket motor quit it felt as if you had extended the dive-brakes.
During the two flights that John Boardman did he reached some 61 000ft still indicating M 1.7. with an IAS of approx 350 kts (In order to retain reasonable elevon control).
Note : In theory you were supposed to be attempting to lock-on to a target during this sequence!!!
When the rocket motor quit you would reduce to min PC and start the decelleration process and start the recovery back to Base. At this stage one’s fuel level would be low (you had been flying with max PC since starting the take-off roll).

No rocket motor assisted high altitude flights were ever done in South Africa . While on 2 Squadron, Bob King and Ken Smith were scheduled to do high altitude flights. This entailed a mach 2 acceleration at 36 000 ft and then a ballistic climb to see what altitude could be attained.
Bob and Ken Smith kitted up, but Ken’s full pressure suit tore so Bob was the first to do a high altitude flight. There used to be a photograph in 2 Squadron that was taken on this occasion. Ken Smith did three high altitude flights, on 16 May 1967, 17 May 1967, and 3 August 1967, reaching 63 000 ft, 66 000 ft, and 71 000 ft respectively. Ken Smith remembers that going over at 71 000 ft the stick was virtually fully back (full up elevons), virtually no lateral control and an IAS of around 200 knots.
Ollie Holmes was involved in the high altitude flying program and his first flight was on the 16/05/1967 in Mirage 832. He did several other flights but the most interesting and probably the scariest of them all was when the flight was done in the Mirage III. RZ (recce) series aircraft on strength. All high altitude flights were done in the Mirage IIIE series because of certain necessary equipment that was available and which was not so in the older Mirage IIICZ version. The high flight in the Mirage III RZ aircraft was done because it had the compatible equipment and no other aircraft was readily available at that time, but during the flight and after the zenith was attained the flight resulted in an almost uncontrollable rolling motion and positive control was only regained around about the 30,000 ft level. Much later when Ollie was paging through the Mirage III RZ flight manual he came across an entry in large print “ The aircraft is not cleared for high altitude flying above xxxxx ft “, the highest altitude Ollie Holmes reached was about 71,000 ft.
For flights above 50 000 ft a full pressure suit with a pressure helmet was required. In actual fact four layers of clothing had to be worn. First of all was a white silk suit lined with flat perforated tubes through which cold air was blown to keep the pilot cool. On top of this came the pressure suit looking much like a corset, and a metal airtight ring for the neck piece, to which the helmet was attached, with thin steel cables holding it down to the suit. Then of course came the half g-suit, and over everything the white leather overall. Ken Smith is under the impression that the leather overall was made from horse hide, and it was also impregnated with some silver type crystals to protect against ultra violet radiation at high altitude. There were three holes in the leather overall, one on either hip and one in the front. These were for the g-suit connection (LH side), pressure suit (RH side), and cooling air (front).

During the first years of the Mirage’s Cliff Melville, OC of 2 Squadron decided that the leather overalls should be worn for all flights, with the half g-suit either inside or over the leather overalls. Needless to say the silver crystal impregnation was soon worn off. Ken Smiths white leather overall is currently in the SA National War Museum in Johannesburg.

http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3193&hilit=mirage+rocket+pack&start=30

The Swiss may have used the same sort of profile, or a different one of course. I recall the rocket pack could actually be shut down and restarted 3 times in flight, with its total duration being about 80 seconds. I speak under correction though.

So perhaps due to the mountainous valleys in Switzerland, it perhaps was used to get off the ground rapidly and get into a steep climb profile quickly?

Was having a look again at the Mirage III family.

You never really see the Swiss Mirage IIIS discussed, and yet it is a really interesting variant.
Basically, a redesigned Mirage IIIC.

In all, 36 Mirage IIIS interceptors were built with strengthened wings, airframe, and undercarriage. The Swiss Air Force required performance comparable to those of carrier based planes; the airframes were reinforced so the aircraft could be moved by lifting them over other aircraft with a crane, as in the Aircraft cavern in the mountains that Swiss Air Force uses as bunkers, offer very little space to maneuver parked aircraft. Also, the strengthened frames allowed for JATO assisted takeoffs. The main differences to the standard Mirage III were as follows:

New wiring of avionics with U.S. electronics
Changed cockpit design with gray instead of black panels
New U.S. radar, TARAN-18 from Hughes
Use of HM-55S “Falcon” (Swiss designation of the from SAAB in Licence built Robot 27 (Rb27) which is similar to the Hughes AIM-26 “Falcon”)
Radar warning receiver (RWR) on both wingtips and on the back of the rudder
Strengthened structure for use of JATO-Rockets
Retractable nosecone and lengthened nosewheel leg for storing in Aircraft cavern
Four lifting points for moving aircraft in underground caverns with a crane
Bay at the fin with a SEPR rocket engine to double the velocity for short time or climb to 20 000 m (60 000 ft)
US TRACOR AN/ALE-40 chaff/flare dispenser at the back under the end of the engine (fitted with the upgrade 1988)
Canards designed and produced by RUAG Aerospace(fitted with the upgrade 1988)
New Martin-Baker ejection-seat (fitted with the upgrade 1988)

The Swiss Mirages are equipped with RWS, chaff & flare dispensers. Avionics differed as well, with the most prominent difference being that the Thomson-CSF Cyrano II radar was replaced by Hughes TARAN-18 system, giving the Mirage IIIS compatibility with the Hughes AIM-4 Falcon AAM. Also the Mirage IIIS had the wiring to carry a Swiss-built nuclear bomb or French nuclear bomb. The Swiss nuclear bomb was stopped in the preproduction stage and Switzerland did not purchase the French-made bomb. The Mirage IIIS had an integral fuel tank under the aft belly; this fuel tank could be removed and replaced with an adapter of the same shape. This adapter housed a SEPR (Société Europeénne de PRopulsion) rocket engine with its 300l nitric acid fuel tank. With the SEPR rocket, the Mirage IIIS easily reached altitudes of 24,000 m, a assitional thrust of 1500kp, the SEPR could be switchet off and on minimum three times in a flight, a maximum use of 80 seconds was possible. In case of an emergency it was possible to jettison the SEPR Unit in low speed flight. The rocket fuel was very hazardous and highly toxic, so the SEPR rocket was not used very often, special buildings for maintenance were build in Bouchs and Payerne and the personal had to wear special protective suits. The Mirage IIIRS could also carry a photo-reconnaissance centerline pod and an integral fuel tank under the aft belly; this carried a smaller fuel load but allowed a back looking film camera to be added. In the early 1990s, the 30 surviving Swiss Mirage IIIS interceptors were put through an upgrade program, which included fitting them with fixed canards and updated avionics.

Additionally, I’ve noticed that the Swiss Mirage has what looks like vortex generators near the tip of the nose at the base of the pitot tube, a modification I’ve not seen on any other Mirage III.

Did the strengthened airframe, wings, and undercarriage add much additional weight?
Why did RUAG design the canards? Are they different from other Mirage III, Cheetah, and Kfir canards? (I’ve also seen it written, albeit without evidence, that the canards were sourced from Israel.)
How did the Hughes TARAN-18 radar fare in comparison to the usual Cyrano II?

Yeah, I also wondered why the JF-17 rather than the J-10. Maybe it’s because the JF-17 can be fitted with western avionics.

Not too sure myself.

Although I understand the need to induct a new type, my reasoning was that purchasing, inducting, training on, and maintaining a new fighter is an expensive, time consuming business.

So you’d want the platform to still be viable in, say, 15 years time or longer.

You’d have to think the J-10 fits that bill a whole lot better than the JF-17, and as mentioned, it’s not that radically more expensive from what I can gather.

As intimated by yourself and taratukhin, there may be a good reason for that, apart from “tech tranfer”. Possibly the engine issue?
Still, from what I can gather, I do recall seeing it mentioned somewhere that the J-10 is for sale.

You still get the impression that it would be better to go for something a little more capable though.

If they are looking at China, why not the J-10 rather?

The J-10 isn’t that much more expensive, but seems to be in a different league, with much more capabilities.

It also comes in a twin seater model already, and has already flown with an aerial refuelling probe.

As did this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EWR_VJ_101

It managed Mach 1.08, and was the first VTOL aircraft to break the sound barrier, I believe.