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wilhelm

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  • in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129687
    wilhelm
    Participant

    Tankdriver..yes indeed there was a project for a navalised Mirage F1.
    I seem to recall it being designated the Mirage F1M or F1 Marine.
    It was originally touted to replace the original Etendard, but later it was realised it could also replace the F8 in the interceptor role.
    Again, I speak from memory so mught be incorrect, but I think it was to be powered by the M53 to provide better thrust IIRC.
    At the time, I think they settled on the Super Etendard for reasons of economy/budget. I personally think this was a missed opportunity to replace 2 airframes with one.
    A mockup, or partial mockup at least was displayed.
    It’s a bit late here now, so I’ll try and dig up the info tomorrow.

    in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129780
    wilhelm
    Participant

    Sorry, I could have been a bit clearer.
    It was looked at as an engine for the Carver.
    This was intimated by someone who was peripherally involved on that programme.
    Apparently, whilst trying to finalise the engine for that project, an opportunity came up as Yugoslavia were going to use it on the Novi Avion.
    If used on Carver, its clear it was to be used on the later twin engine model, not the original single engine model.
    Like you, I have my doubts it would ever be worthwhile on an F1, even though the interim Super F1 and Super Cheetah C were to try and leverage as much commonality with the Carver.
    Once Carver went twin engined towards the end, any motive commonality went out the window I suspect.
    Having said that, the SMR-95 as used in the Cheetah and Mirage F1 airframe also had considerable work done to it to make it a better fit, not least the repositioning of engine ancilliaries, and lengthening the engine.
    In my opinion, the only worthwhile option to re-engine the Mirage F1 from a SAAF perspective were the upgraded ATAR 9K50 that was worked upon, the SMR-95 as fitted, or the M53. I idly have wondered about the PW1120 as used in the Lavi, but I suspect that would have been fraught with political difficulties, and became moot anyway once Lavi was cancelled.
    I suspect (I recall reading or being told actually) that the M53 was what was wanted, which makes perfect sense in light of the Mirage F1M53.

    in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129788
    wilhelm
    Participant

    Again, just an addenda, as the edit function seems crippled..
    The F1M53 had increased fuel capacity, slightly enlarged engine air intakes, and a strengthened undercarriage. The nose was subtly reprofiled to enable a retractable inflight refuelling probe.
    I guess it was these mods, as well as the slightly lengthened fuselage, that made up the 500-600kg empty weight increase.

    in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129814
    wilhelm
    Participant

    I’m not sure tankdriver.
    Remember, the Cheetah C and Super Mirage F1 were originally envisaged to be interim types until the Carver was fully developed and inducted.
    So perhaps we are talking of around 10-15 years service? I’m not sure…conjecture on my part.
    South Africa had bought a manufacturing licence for the Mirage F1, and indeed, assembled a large portion of the fleet locally, but again, another gentleman on the SAAF forum connected to the project stated that no more than parts, sub-assemblies etc were manufactured for the fleet. He had seen some of the jigs used for that.

    The Super Mirage F1 would make an interesting modelling or drawing project. Basically a Cheetah C forward part, refuelling probe, and the different tail/vertical stabilizer base.
    He did mention there were other smaller refinements, but either my memory fails me on that right now, or he didn’t go into detail.

    The F1M53 was slightly longer than the vanilla F1, had a very slightly larger wingspan, and weighed about 500-600kg heavier when empty.
    I think it’s maximum speed at altitude (12000m used as the base IIRC) was unchanged, but apparently it demonstrated a very healthy leap forward in speed at sea level/low altitude (Mach 1.25 IIRC). But its maximum climb rate showed a massive 45% improvement leap.
    The fact that the vanilla Mirage F1 was no slouch on the deck, being one of the faster fighters on the deck, illustrates how fast the M53 powered variant was.

    in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129824
    wilhelm
    Participant

    tankdriver67
    On the engine side, was any thought given to the Spey? Any attempt to obtain some clandestinely? Only reason I ask is that they were used by 24 Squadron’s Buccaneers.

    That is an interesting point that I had considered before.
    I do wonder though how feasible it would have been. The main issue would have been sourcing those additional engines. Even if that was possible, I am unsure whether civilian Speys could have been leveraged into a spare parts capacity.
    What has been stated is that the SAAF was interested in the M53, which in a funny sort of way, would have brought the Mirage F1 full circle back to the Mirage F1M53 which first flew on 22nd December 1974. It had quite blistering flight performance.
    I suspect it would have been difficult though to get that through sanctions.
    Whilst the additional ATAR 9K50’s for the Cheetah C programme did come from from France, via Israel, there was a strong element of deniability that could be attached to that as SA was already a user.
    The same apparently was due for the Snecma M88, that would have been rerouted through Yugoslavia as it was to be used on the Novi Avion.
    I suspect that the M88, whilst more modern than the 9K50, would not have offered any advantages in thrust.
    I suspect the M53 was first choice, especially as it had previously been fitted into a modified Mirage F1 airframe.

    in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129830
    wilhelm
    Participant

    No one cares.

    142 words posted over 2 posts, and still you haven’t bothered to even mention the TOPIC MATERIAL, the Mirage F-1, nor contribute in any meaningful way at all to the topic.
    You are simply derailing and flamebaiting by carrying on a personal feud.
    There are lesser forums you can go to carry on that kind of behaviour.

    Mods?

    in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129835
    wilhelm
    Participant

    Mig-31bm, having witnessed your efforts at derailing various Russian threads over the last while, your ad hominen attack, off topic and unwanted here, is very unwelcome.
    Your post has added ZERO to the thread or its actual subject. It has been an interesting ON TOPIC discussion until your unwanted off topic post, and it really should on another day be reported as a blatant attempt at derailing.
    Mods, can we please keep an eye on this please?

    in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129882
    wilhelm
    Participant

    It’s amazing that the forum functionality appears to have actually gone seriously backwards over the years. Inability to properly edit posts. stuff lost in the ether.. etc
    It’s A LOT worse than it was a decade ago. That takes some doing.

    in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129883
    wilhelm
    Participant

    Interestingly, the SAAF approached that with two solutions.
    One was a new “mini pylon” that housed chaff and flares, situated inboard on each wing between the fuselage and existing inner wing weapons pylon.
    Also, a rather elegant solution was replacing the existing rear ventral fins with a slightly wider new design that housed the chaff and flares.
    This was part of the Radar and Infrared Misleading System or RIMS.
    This ensured that no weapons pylon was taken up by that capability.

    A few pics of these can be found kicking around on the web after a google search.

    in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129884
    wilhelm
    Participant

    The SAAF looked at 2 methods.
    One was a set of flare and chaff pods on each wing between the inner wing hardpoint and the fuselage, as well as a rather elegant solution that replaced the original ventral rear fins with a slightly wider new design that housed the chaff and flares.
    This was part of the RIMS. (Radar and Infrared Misleading System)
    This ensured no weapons pylons were used for that at least.
    There are some pictures of the system kicking around on the web that a google search should reveal.

    in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129930
    wilhelm
    Participant

    I assume the motive side closely followed the Carver’s engine choices.
    There was an upgraded ATAR 9K50 with internal changes, including single crystal blades and different C ombustion chamber etc, that was to yield a +10% performance increase.
    There were reports of the Snecma M53 and M88 being looked at.
    And then obviously the RD33 based SMR-95 that was actually fitted to and flown in a Mirage F-1 And Cheetah.

    in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129946
    wilhelm
    Participant

    Sorry, just an addenda..The forum has a crappy edit function especially via phone. .

    Both F-1 CZ interceptor and AZ strike were to be upgraded into a new identical common multirole platform/configuration.

    in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129948
    wilhelm
    Participant

    On the topic of the Super Mirage F-1 as being developed by Atlas, the gentleman involved with the project stated he was on the avionics side of the project.
    Their brief was basically to ensure that the Cheetah C and Super Mirage F-1 share complete commonality in avionics/cockpit etc.
    He was aware of the other sides that other teams were working on.
    He basically described the project as follows:
    The nose and cockpit were basically the same as the Cheetah C. I assume this includes the canopy.
    An in-flight refuelling probe was to be installed. Not the same as the Mirage F-1AZ. I assume the same as Cheetah C?
    The tail vertical stabilizer/fin was different, having an enlarged fairing at its base similar to an F-16.
    There were other refinements/changes he didn’t elaborate on.

    This was to follow the Cheetah C programme.
    The Mirage III’s were withdrawn fir upgrading to Cheetah E standard. The Cheetah C was following. Once the C was in service, it would allow the F1 to be withdrawn to be upgraded.
    The F-1 therefore might even have had an engine replacement before the Cheetah C.
    All of this would have been followed and eventually replaced by Carver.
    Some (but not all) of this initial F-1 work was later leveraged into the Spanish Mirage F-1 cockpit upgrade.

    in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129952
    wilhelm
    Participant

    Yes.
    Only a fraction of manpower was deployed to Angola (a peak of 3000 during Operations Modular, Packer, and Hooper which were the peaks themselves.)

    The main issue regarding this thread was the sanctions regime, preventing replacement of existing fighters or procurement of newer ones.
    This however was being addressed, with the interim Cheetah E upgrade, followed by the Cheetah C (additional airframes added to the inventory from external source) which in turn was to leverage into the Super Mirage F-1 with aerodynamic changes and Cheetah C systems…followed by the Carver indigineous combat jet.
    In other words, a sensible and proper graduated programme.

    in reply to: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1? #2129976
    wilhelm
    Participant

    Great post LEG.

    Indeed, the SAAF went first into expanded ECM (internal, podded, and Boeing 707) and expanded weapons envelopes – R-Darter BVRAAM and developed and expanded V3 helmet guided missile (Kukri was an export designation)……but there was a great move toward proper stand-off strike weaponry. .quite a slew of them in fact.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 1,634 total)