wilhelmEish!
Ahh look now Tantrum, we can joust in another forum perhaps.
I took you for a Welsh Trade Unionist there for a second!:dev2:
Maybe we shake hands, and rather keep this to the topic..
On the topic, I remember the Chief of the SAAF stating that the C-130BZ had in fact less hours than most USAF C-130E’s.
I cannot recall the exact average across the fleet.
Basically, SAFAIR, which I believe was a subsidiary of Transnet, operated between 17 to 20 stretched Hercules L100’s (a stretched civilian C-130) during the 1980’s.
This was the largest “civilian” L100 fleet worldwide, and it was regarded as a de facto SAAF squadron. It performed a lot of the hauling during the 1980’s thus preserving the flying hours of the C-130BZ’s.
The main problem, apart from age, of the C-130BZ’s is it’s capacity.
The SAAF want something that can carry the Badger/Patria, as well as an Oryx helicopter without having to remove the rotor hub.
This was why they bought into the A400M originally, so as not to rely on chartered Il-76’s as they currently do when deploying on peacekeeping missions outside the country.
wilhelmQuick question: did the SAAF ever operate the SA.319 or just the Artouste-engined SA.316?
On several web sites and books I’ve seen “316 / 319” listed as having been in the inventory but I’ve never seen a picture of a SAAF Alo III other than a 316.
And I see the BK117s are still hanging-in there.
The SAAF operated the Alouette II, and the Artouste powered Alouette III.
The SAAF ordered 7 Alouette II’s, delivered from December 1960.
4 years later, they also bought an additional Alouette II from a private company, Anglo American.
South Africa was an early customer for the Alouette III, and in fact the 4th Alouette III off the production line was the first South African airframe, delivered in 1962.
Approximately 120 were operated.
All South African Alouettes have been of the Artouste SE-3160 (SA-316A) and SA-316B variety.
wilhelmNone, really? Just search the web and you will find plenty of evidence of large scale corruption on a national scale involving areas such as military spending and the media. He was also involved in covering up evidence of National Party corruption (such as the Muldergate Scandal) that had occurred prior to his own presidency. He did this by threatening members of the countries judiciary.
On a smaller scale I have a personal recollection (from living in Mossebaai for two years) of an unusually expensive bridge built, with public funds, to gain access to his holiday home in Klein Brak. In his old constituency of George tales of PW’s corruption are well known.
Right that’s it I’m done. I’m not going to derail this thread any further or bother to argue with yet another South African apartheid apologist, and believe me when I say I have met too many of them over the years…
I see.
The quick and easy slur of “Apartheid Apologist”.
So quick with it, whilst not even knowing who I am or what my or my families ethnic backround is.
Seriously?:rolleyes:
I want you to point out where I’ve been an Apartheid Apologist. When you can’t I will accept your much needed apology for that.:mad:
This is what I said:
The unjust system had to go at some stage.
So far, you have provided:
A study leaning hard on the TRC for “evidence”.
Did you read it?
A Carmel Rickard blog.:rolleyes: I take it you don’t know her.
Muldergate had absolutely nothing to do with personal corruption, and was in fact what is considered Psyops, as practiced by the CIA and MI5.
The bridge built in The Wilderness serves a community and a tourist resource that crosses a river that is continually flooded in one of South Africa’s rainiest regions, home to a rain forest.
Nelson Mandela:
“while to many Mr Botha will remain a symbol of apartheid, we also remember him for the steps he took to pave the way towards the eventual peacefully negotiated settlement in our country.”
So far, after your threadjack, you have provided not one shred of evidence for personal corruption by him.
You haven’t seemed to provide evidence against the fact that he did in fact start putting an end to Apartheid, starting with the “petty apartheid” laws.
Nelson Mandela seems to agree with me, and not with you.;)
You seem to be labouring under the impression that living within 100km of him for 700 days is enough evidence.:D
I once spent 5 years in the UK, getting married there at the end. I don’t assume I know about the political system more than the British as a result.
Right that’s it I’m done. I’m not going to derail this thread any further
Please, and thank goodness for that.
Let us stick to the topic.
I have provided 2 detailed posts filled with information on the topic.
Maybe you should contribute similarly to the thread, or start a political thread in the General Discussion forum.
wilhelmI am not trying to defend the unfortunate corruption that currently exists in SA but PW? Don’t make me laugh. Possibly the most corrupt and dictatorial of all the apartheid era leaders.
Nonsense.
I would ask you for examples of personal corruption of his, but we both know there are non.
Please let us not derail the thread.
wilhelmOriginally posted by Belethor
But the T-50 quite clearly has no TVC and never has. I think you meant to say the T-50 should eventually have TVC that operates on the same principle as the Indian MKI.
But we know the F-35 nozzles were designed with RCS reduction in mind. We do not know the same of the PAK-FA nozzles, not yet anyway.
:rolleyes:
Better to wait.
The last bolded bit should be the way to go.
There is a new, different, second stage engine in the works, from all reports.
This may have a very different nozzle geometry.
wilhelmA rarer thing, but one I know sometimes happened, was racial re-classification when competing for jobs with people with powerful friends. I’ve met people who were re-classified. Imagine changing from ‘white’ to ‘coloured’, & therefore no longer being allowed to do the job you’re employed to do, or live with your (classified as white) family, & seeing a bloke with a brother in the racial classification board get the job you’d just been shortlisted for.
Never known that to happen.
I have for instance known the reverse.
I was in school with people who were obviously of mixed blood, and who had perhaps one parent who seemed to have been misclassified!
My best friend in school was an example.
Not that it bothered me or anyone else in the slightest.
A couple of sidenotes, the Army was deracialised to a much larger extent than civil society.
My Major in the army being a prime example, as were 2 members of my platoon. Both in Infantry School, which is where the leaders of the Infantry were trained. This was way before the end of Apartheid.
Another little anecdote is that petty Apartheid was being dismantelled long before FW de Klerk appeared on the scene. PW Botha was the initiator of this, and for some reason rarely gets the credence for it.
Desegregated public transport happened in the early 80’s already, well, certainly in the Cape, not that Hollywood let’s that get in the way of a script. He also initiated talks to release Nelson Mandela, years before, on the sole proviso that he forsook violence as a means for change.
The unjust system had to go at some stage. It was about the timing wrt to the political violence that was the driving force, as well as the Cold War.
The topic is more about the outright theft of public funds, and the impact it has on budgets, such as the SANDF. In this regard, the ANC are head and shoulders above the previous government.
It is no coincidence that the Western Cape is consistently run better than the rest of the country. It is also the only province run by the opposition, and the large amount of “coloured” people who live there are responsible for an important part of that voting.;)
Anyway, we digress..
I would prefer sticking to the topic.
It is the operational funding of the armed forces that is the issue.
The branches, the SAAF and SAN in particular, do still deploy, and carry out their roles.
As stated above, the Navy regularly excercises and deploys, and has a permanent deployment outside territorial waters, which is presently ongoing.
The airforce does involve itself in excercises, and has done so recently.
Lion Effort 2012 in Sweden last year is an example already mentioned.
They could certainly do with more funds for operations, and that is the truth.
Many airforces and navies worldwide are struggling with this though, in the post Cold War environment, and current global recession.
An example is that certain countries, such as New Zealand for example, have given up any real combat function of their airforce.
A brief look at the Royal Navy shows a much reduced fleet, with 10 submarines, and 18 destroyers and frigates.
These are the times we live in.
Another issue is that the ANC allowed the armed forces to waste away by using it as an employment agency for ex MK guerillas, and by not wanting to intimidate other neighbouring countries. I kid you not.
Certainly Apartheid South Africas aggessive and successful operations had a role to play, but on the political and strategic level, that pose ranks as lunacy.
Anyway, this is from the SAAF Air Capability Demo at Roodewal Range 3 months ago…
wilhelmWhich is little different from any radical opposition hurling its toys out of the pram when the democratic process goes against its aspirations and beliefs. I can recall Tory governments being accused of facsism and Labour governments accused of communism by respective oppositions in past years and not so past years!
wilhelm – yes it certainly does seem to annoy some Brits on here! But I am equally sure they would be happy for Americans or Germans or Chinese to criticise the way we do things here and to offer advice and counsel changes to our systrems.;):D
Nail…..Head.;)
I was having a friendly dig.
I should certainly have used the word “some”.
wilhelmWhich is little different from any radical opposition hurling its toys out of the pram when the democratic process goes against its aspirations and beliefs. I can recall Tory governments being accused of facsism and Labour governments accused of communism by respective oppositions in past years and not so past years!
wilhelm – yes it certainly does seem to annoy some Brits on here! But I am equally sure they would be happy for Americans or Germans or Chinese to criticise the way we do things here and to offer advice and counsel changes to our systrems.;):D
Nail…..Head.;)
I was having a friendly dig.
I should certainly have used the word “some”.
wilhelmSouth Africa was corrupt before the ANC took over. The beneficiaries have changed, & to some extent the style of the corruption. It’s no longer legislated for in the way it used to be.
It was nowhere near as corrupt as now Swerve.
Because of sanctions during Apartheid, there was a measure of “black” budgets (no pun intended) that were a necessity.
The nuclear weapons programme is an illustration of this.
There was scope for abuse with this, but surprisingly little, relative to what happens now, went on for actual personal enrichment.
The ANC would love to prosecute for that if it did go on, for reasons of monetary and diversion tactics, and the lack of anything wrt to legal cases in that regard supports this wholly.
It seems to be a common thing to state that, but with never any evidence to support the comparison to what is going on now.
There was surely corruption, as in all countries, but it was a drop in the ocean compared to the current crowd.
wilhelmI would love you to elaborate on your remarks above because as they are written they come across to me as words with an undercurrent of racism to them.
Anxiously awaiting some clarification.
Seriously?
It has been a problem in Africa for decades, not helped by unethical companies from outside, with particular emphasis on Europe and the US.
Where have you been all this time?:D
wilhelm– Inability to deploy Navy
They have just concluded the ATLASUR IX, with Argentina, Brazil, and Uruguay, 3 months ago.
The South African participants were the frigate SAS Amatola, submarine SAS Queen Modjadji, maritime patrol aircraft, BAe Hawks, and special forces operations.
The excercise happens every 2 years.
Last excercise, in 2010, the SAN deployed the SAS Drakensberg Combat Support Ship, and the submarine SAS Charlotte Maxeke across the South Atlantic to Argentina.
The SAN also partook in the Ibsamar III in 2012, another excercise that takes place every 2 years. Participants are South Africa, Brazil, and India.
The SAN deploy on anti piracy patrols off the Northern Mozambique coast, as part of Operation Copper.
Since 2011, the Combat Support Ship SAS Drakensberg, Frigates SAS Amatola, SAS Isandlwana, SAS Mendi, SAS Spionkop, and a supporting Turbo-Dakota MPA have all deployed as part of Operation Copper, on deployments lasting between 4 to 6 months.
SAS Amatola is currently there are on deployment as I type.
The SAAF participated in excercise Lion Effort 2012 in Sweden.
There were plans to replace the C-130 with the Airbus A400M, but this was cancelled due to the well known problems with that programme at one stage.
The requirement is still open, and the A400M may still enter into it.
There is a programme that will look at the Dakota replacement. It will most likely be a single platform for transport and MPA, so might be the EADS CASA 295.
On many of your other points, I agree.
The problem is actual funding of operations and personnell.
Buying the new equipment also needed correct levels of funding, that hasn’t been given. There have possibly been noises made to remedy this.
I disagree about loss of highly trained staff to the civil market being SAAF specific. This is an issue for most airforces across the globe.
The Denel maintenance issue should be a concern. A big one, IMHO. But noises are being made in the press about it, so let’s see what transpires.
wilhelmIt is worth bearing in mind why they have the second amendment.
They’ve had to fight tyranny before, from an unelected entity.
It is perfectly understandable why they wrote it in.
It still seems to annoy the British, looking at this thread…:diablo:
wilhelmIt is worth bearing in mind why they have the second amendment.
They’ve had to fight tyranny before, from an unelected entity.
It is perfectly understandable why they wrote it in.
It still seems to annoy the British, looking at this thread…:diablo:
wilhelmTo remove the emotion, and look at things statistically, the following is interesting:
Swaziland and the UK have an almost identical rate of ownership of guns, at 6 per 100 people.
Firearm related deaths per 100 000 people?
Swaziland – 37.1
UK – 0,2
Serbia has the second highest gun ownership rate per 100 people on the planet, after the US.
58,2 guns per 100 people.
Brazil is not a society where gun ownership is high. They are in fact in the lower spectrum and are only slightly higher than the UK, but in the same ballpark.
They have 8 guns per 100 people.
Firearm related deaths per 100 000 people?
Serbia – 3,8
Brazil – 19,1
The Swiss are 4th highest in firearm ownership in the world, with a difference. Switzerland has probably the highest ownership of high powered automatic military rifles on the planet.
Every Swiss male who is conscripted into the army keeps his rifle at home when he’s finished his conscription. Until 2 or 3 years ago, he also got 50 rounds of ammunition. The said ammunition for the rifles can be bought in Switzerland too.
Yet the last statistics show about twice as many people were stabbed in Switzerland than were shot.
Switzerland, despite all the high powered automatic military rifles in basically every home, has a very low gun crime rate.
It’s comparable to New Zealands.
Chile has above average gun ownership at 11 guns per 100 people.
Japan way below, one of the lowest in the world, at 0,6 guns per 100 people.
Yet Chile has less gun crime than Japan. 0,06 compared to 0,07 per 100 000 people.
Basically speaking, Chile has twice as many firearms as the British, but gun crime that is 3 times lower.
The top 5 gun crime countries in the world, per capita, all have below average gun ownership per capita.
The above statistics are open source that I’ve collected myself, and checked, compiled by governments, and thus have nothing to do with the NRA.
All evidence points toward the way a society is run, as opposed to legal gun ownership.
wilhelmTo remove the emotion, and look at things statistically, the following is interesting:
Swaziland and the UK have an almost identical rate of ownership of guns, at 6 per 100 people.
Firearm related deaths per 100 000 people?
Swaziland – 37.1
UK – 0,2
Serbia has the second highest gun ownership rate per 100 people on the planet, after the US.
58,2 guns per 100 people.
Brazil is not a society where gun ownership is high. They are in fact in the lower spectrum and are only slightly higher than the UK, but in the same ballpark.
They have 8 guns per 100 people.
Firearm related deaths per 100 000 people?
Serbia – 3,8
Brazil – 19,1
The Swiss are 4th highest in firearm ownership in the world, with a difference. Switzerland has probably the highest ownership of high powered automatic military rifles on the planet.
Every Swiss male who is conscripted into the army keeps his rifle at home when he’s finished his conscription. Until 2 or 3 years ago, he also got 50 rounds of ammunition. The said ammunition for the rifles can be bought in Switzerland too.
Yet the last statistics show about twice as many people were stabbed in Switzerland than were shot.
Switzerland, despite all the high powered automatic military rifles in basically every home, has a very low gun crime rate.
It’s comparable to New Zealands.
Chile has above average gun ownership at 11 guns per 100 people.
Japan way below, one of the lowest in the world, at 0,6 guns per 100 people.
Yet Chile has less gun crime than Japan. 0,06 compared to 0,07 per 100 000 people.
Basically speaking, Chile has twice as many firearms as the British, but gun crime that is 3 times lower.
The top 5 gun crime countries in the world, per capita, all have below average gun ownership per capita.
The above statistics are open source that I’ve collected myself, and checked, compiled by governments, and thus have nothing to do with the NRA.
All evidence points toward the way a society is run, as opposed to legal gun ownership.
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