wilhelmBlue2
It has been suggested that weapons were, er, spirited away from the fallen…
They all might have had a weapon or they all might not have, who knows.
I think that there has been enough covering up over the last 28 years.
The various press photos used at the original enquiry, before and after shots, have already shown certain soldiers guilty of perjury. The testimonies of certain soldiers, as well as eye witnesses, also bear testimony to the fact that the killed were not armed. You may choose to inform yourself about events on this unfortunate day (for both sides), or continue with idle, loose, ill-informed speculation. The material is out there. There is a reason this unfortunate event is notorious world wide.
The fact that many at the front were men is consistent in most countries/cultures in the world IMHO. Certainly all the protest marches I have attended to in an emotional atmosphere have been as such. It is regarded as the fathers or sons job in many cultures to protest against an injustice or iniquity, whether to family or community. And it matters not a whit what their sex is at the end of the day. They were still loved and missed by someone.
wilhelmWilhelm – interesting notes . None of which mentions any tests for any other type of weapon – ie nail bomb -petrol bomb etc . Unfortunately if you have infantry carrying out a policing job the end result is often not going to be as desired. I don’t really understand what kind of justice people want -do they want the kind of justice that saw Republican and Loyalist prisoners freed for political means as part of the Good Friday agreement . Some having served incredibly short terms for murder – or do people want to continue to channel incredible sums of money into the hands of lawyers ?
Looking at the sums so far seems to indicate that 13 million pounds has been spent per victim to come to this conclusion. Do you think that anything like that amount will be spent in trying to find the truth behind the less publicised killings in Northern Ireland?
Fair points David, on which I basically agree with.
I think the fact that no nail bombs were found , with the possible exception of Gerald Donaghy says it all, and there is even controversy surrounding that, given his transportation to a British Army medical post in a desperate attempt to save his life, and the various testimonies subsequent to that.
I’m trying hard, within my own experience, to think of a reason to fire in excess of 100 rounds into a crowd over the space of only a few minutes. Short of an all out attack with automatic fire and heavy weapons from multiple points, I simply cannot fathom it.
I must say I agree with you that as an ex-soldier, using infantry, or any armed soldier for that matter, is not an ideal solution in these environments. And I’ve always definitely thought that using troops such as paratroopers is always courting disaster. They are magnificent troops, sent far out, relatively lightly equipped, to capture certain objectives, create bridgeheads, or play a blocking or channeling role, most often far from friendly support. They are trained to be, and are by nature, extremely aggressive.
In my own experience in internal security and internal unrest, I would never, ever deploy them (paratroopers) in such a role. This is my own opinion, bourne out of my own experience, and the pieces that needed to be picked up after they deployed out of an area I was moved into.
wilhelmWilhelm – interesting notes . None of which mentions any tests for any other type of weapon – ie nail bomb -petrol bomb etc . Unfortunately if you have infantry carrying out a policing job the end result is often not going to be as desired. I don’t really understand what kind of justice people want -do they want the kind of justice that saw Republican and Loyalist prisoners freed for political means as part of the Good Friday agreement . Some having served incredibly short terms for murder – or do people want to continue to channel incredible sums of money into the hands of lawyers ?
Looking at the sums so far seems to indicate that 13 million pounds has been spent per victim to come to this conclusion. Do you think that anything like that amount will be spent in trying to find the truth behind the less publicised killings in Northern Ireland?
Fair points David, on which I basically agree with.
I think the fact that no nail bombs were found , with the possible exception of Gerald Donaghy says it all, and there is even controversy surrounding that, given his transportation to a British Army medical post in a desperate attempt to save his life, and the various testimonies subsequent to that.
I’m trying hard, within my own experience, to think of a reason to fire in excess of 100 rounds into a crowd over the space of only a few minutes. Short of an all out attack with automatic fire and heavy weapons from multiple points, I simply cannot fathom it.
I must say I agree with you that as an ex-soldier, using infantry, or any armed soldier for that matter, is not an ideal solution in these environments. And I’ve always definitely thought that using troops such as paratroopers is always courting disaster. They are magnificent troops, sent far out, relatively lightly equipped, to capture certain objectives, create bridgeheads, or play a blocking or channeling role, most often far from friendly support. They are trained to be, and are by nature, extremely aggressive.
In my own experience in internal security and internal unrest, I would never, ever deploy them (paratroopers) in such a role. This is my own opinion, bourne out of my own experience, and the pieces that needed to be picked up after they deployed out of an area I was moved into.
wilhelmOriginally Posted by wilhelm View Post
It is a given that any person, loyalist or unionist, that has killed innocent civilians should be prosecuted.
But not the Republicans or Nationalists that have killed innocent civilians?
Errr, you’re not making much sense to me. Isn’t that exactly what I’ve said?:confused:
wilhelmOriginally Posted by wilhelm View Post
It is a given that any person, loyalist or unionist, that has killed innocent civilians should be prosecuted.
But not the Republicans or Nationalists that have killed innocent civilians?
Errr, you’re not making much sense to me. Isn’t that exactly what I’ve said?:confused:
wilhelmLook, it is good to know justice has been served. The families of those men killed that day now have legal recourse, and have previously existed in a legal limbo for all these years. The original enquiry stated that there was no unlawful death that day, a ludicrous whitewash that has led to this bitter resentment over the years.
I cannot understand why people in this thread keep dragging other incidents of the troubles in on this thread. It is a given that any person, republican or unionist, that has killed innocent civilians should be prosecuted. I personally would like to see them rot in hell. Any sane person would.
But this is about the events of Bloody Sunday, and that march. The hard facts are that the Paras were transported to the area and fired over 100 rounds of sharp point ammunition into a crowd. There is also the small matter of perjury, when a few soldiers stated that they had shot people shooting firearms at them, a version which was disproved by forensics even at the original enquiry.:(
13 were killed, with a 14th dying later from complications of his wounds. 14 others were wounded.
John Duddy, 17 years old. Shot in the chest in the car park of Rossville flats. Running away from the paratroopers when he was killed. Unarmed.
Patrick Doherty, 31 years old. Shot from behind while attempting to crawl to safety in the forecourt of Rossville flats. Doherty was the subject of a series of photographs, taken before and after he died by French journalist Gilles Peress. Despite testimony from “Soldier F” that he had fired at a man holding and firing a pistol, Widgery acknowledged that the photographs showed Doherty was unarmed, and that forensic tests on his hands for gunshot residue proved negative. Unarmed.
Bernard McGuigan, 41 years old. Shot in the back of the head when he went to help Patrick Doherty. He had been waving a white handkerchief at the soldiers to indicate his peaceful intentions. Unarmed.
Hugh Pious Gilmour, 17 years old. Shot as he ran from the paratroopers on Rossville Street. Widgery acknowledged that a photograph taken seconds after Gilmour was hit corroborated witness reports that he was unarmed, and that tests for gunshot residue were negative. Unarmed.
Kevin McElhinney, 17 years old. Shot from behind while attempting to crawl to safety at the front entrance of the Rossville Flats. Unarmed.
Michael Kelly, 17 years old. Shot in the stomach while standing near the rubble barricade in front of Rossville Flats. Unarmed.
John Pius Young, 17 years old. Shot in the head while standing at the rubble barricade. Unarmed.
William Nash, 19 years old. Shot in the chest near the barricade. Unarmed and shot going to the aid of another when killed. Unarmed.
Michael McDaid, 20 years old. Shot in the face at the barricade as he was walking away from the paratroopers. The trajectory of the bullet indicated he could have been killed by soldiers positioned on the Derry Walls. Unarmed.
James Wray, 22 years old. Wounded then shot again at close range while lying on the ground. Wray was calling out to say that he could not move his legs before he was shot the second time. Unarmed.
Gerald Donaghy, 17years old. Shot in the stomach while attempting to run to safety between Glenfada Park and Abbey Park. Donaghy was brought to a nearby house by bystanders where he was examined by a doctor. His pockets were turned out in an effort to identify him. A later police photograph of Donaghy’s corpse showed nail bombs in his pockets. Neither those who searched his pockets in the house nor the British army medical officer (Soldier 138) who pronounced his death shortly afterwards say they saw any bombs. The only victim who may possibly have been armed, albeit hidden in his pockets.
Gerald McKinney, 34 years old. Shot just after Gerald Donaghy. Witnesses stated that McKinney had been running behind Donaghy, and he stopped and held up his arms, shouting “Don’t shoot! Don’t shoot!”, when he saw Donaghy fall. He was then shot in the chest. Unarmed.
William McKinney, 27 years old. Shot from behind as he attempted to aid Gerald McKinney. He had left cover to try to help Gerald. Unarmed.
John Johnston, 59 years old. Shot in the leg and left shoulder.. Johnston was not on the march, but on his way to visit a friend in Glenfada Park. He died 4½ months later; his death has been attributed to the injuries he received on the day. He was the only one not to die immediately or soon after being shot. Unarmed.
The city’s coroner, retired British Army Major Hubert O’Neill, issued a statement on 21 August 1973, at the completion of the inquest into the people killed. He declared:
“This Sunday became known as Bloody Sunday and bloody it was. It was quite unnecessary. It strikes me that the Army ran amok that day and shot without thinking what they were doing. They were shooting innocent people. These people may have been taking part in a march that was banned but that does not justify the troops coming in and firing live rounds indiscriminately. I would say without hesitation that it was sheer, unadulterated murder. It was murder.”
As an ex infantry officer who has been in many, many situations with provocations similar or worse as what happened that day, I have my own firm opinions on the conduct of the soldiers that day.
Incidentally, the march was demonstrating against Internement without Trial, and discrimination against Catholics in electoral boundaries, voting rights and allocation of public housing.
Let us hope that the peace that NI needs may long reign.
wilhelmLook, it is good to know justice has been served. The families of those men killed that day now have legal recourse, and have previously existed in a legal limbo for all these years. The original enquiry stated that there was no unlawful death that day, a ludicrous whitewash that has led to this bitter resentment over the years.
I cannot understand why people in this thread keep dragging other incidents of the troubles in on this thread. It is a given that any person, republican or unionist, that has killed innocent civilians should be prosecuted. I personally would like to see them rot in hell. Any sane person would.
But this is about the events of Bloody Sunday, and that march. The hard facts are that the Paras were transported to the area and fired over 100 rounds of sharp point ammunition into a crowd. There is also the small matter of perjury, when a few soldiers stated that they had shot people shooting firearms at them, a version which was disproved by forensics even at the original enquiry.:(
13 were killed, with a 14th dying later from complications of his wounds. 14 others were wounded.
John Duddy, 17 years old. Shot in the chest in the car park of Rossville flats. Running away from the paratroopers when he was killed. Unarmed.
Patrick Doherty, 31 years old. Shot from behind while attempting to crawl to safety in the forecourt of Rossville flats. Doherty was the subject of a series of photographs, taken before and after he died by French journalist Gilles Peress. Despite testimony from “Soldier F” that he had fired at a man holding and firing a pistol, Widgery acknowledged that the photographs showed Doherty was unarmed, and that forensic tests on his hands for gunshot residue proved negative. Unarmed.
Bernard McGuigan, 41 years old. Shot in the back of the head when he went to help Patrick Doherty. He had been waving a white handkerchief at the soldiers to indicate his peaceful intentions. Unarmed.
Hugh Pious Gilmour, 17 years old. Shot as he ran from the paratroopers on Rossville Street. Widgery acknowledged that a photograph taken seconds after Gilmour was hit corroborated witness reports that he was unarmed, and that tests for gunshot residue were negative. Unarmed.
Kevin McElhinney, 17 years old. Shot from behind while attempting to crawl to safety at the front entrance of the Rossville Flats. Unarmed.
Michael Kelly, 17 years old. Shot in the stomach while standing near the rubble barricade in front of Rossville Flats. Unarmed.
John Pius Young, 17 years old. Shot in the head while standing at the rubble barricade. Unarmed.
William Nash, 19 years old. Shot in the chest near the barricade. Unarmed and shot going to the aid of another when killed. Unarmed.
Michael McDaid, 20 years old. Shot in the face at the barricade as he was walking away from the paratroopers. The trajectory of the bullet indicated he could have been killed by soldiers positioned on the Derry Walls. Unarmed.
James Wray, 22 years old. Wounded then shot again at close range while lying on the ground. Wray was calling out to say that he could not move his legs before he was shot the second time. Unarmed.
Gerald Donaghy, 17years old. Shot in the stomach while attempting to run to safety between Glenfada Park and Abbey Park. Donaghy was brought to a nearby house by bystanders where he was examined by a doctor. His pockets were turned out in an effort to identify him. A later police photograph of Donaghy’s corpse showed nail bombs in his pockets. Neither those who searched his pockets in the house nor the British army medical officer (Soldier 138) who pronounced his death shortly afterwards say they saw any bombs. The only victim who may possibly have been armed, albeit hidden in his pockets.
Gerald McKinney, 34 years old. Shot just after Gerald Donaghy. Witnesses stated that McKinney had been running behind Donaghy, and he stopped and held up his arms, shouting “Don’t shoot! Don’t shoot!”, when he saw Donaghy fall. He was then shot in the chest. Unarmed.
William McKinney, 27 years old. Shot from behind as he attempted to aid Gerald McKinney. He had left cover to try to help Gerald. Unarmed.
John Johnston, 59 years old. Shot in the leg and left shoulder.. Johnston was not on the march, but on his way to visit a friend in Glenfada Park. He died 4½ months later; his death has been attributed to the injuries he received on the day. He was the only one not to die immediately or soon after being shot. Unarmed.
The city’s coroner, retired British Army Major Hubert O’Neill, issued a statement on 21 August 1973, at the completion of the inquest into the people killed. He declared:
“This Sunday became known as Bloody Sunday and bloody it was. It was quite unnecessary. It strikes me that the Army ran amok that day and shot without thinking what they were doing. They were shooting innocent people. These people may have been taking part in a march that was banned but that does not justify the troops coming in and firing live rounds indiscriminately. I would say without hesitation that it was sheer, unadulterated murder. It was murder.”
As an ex infantry officer who has been in many, many situations with provocations similar or worse as what happened that day, I have my own firm opinions on the conduct of the soldiers that day.
Incidentally, the march was demonstrating against Internement without Trial, and discrimination against Catholics in electoral boundaries, voting rights and allocation of public housing.
Let us hope that the peace that NI needs may long reign.
wilhelmGreat post, Slippery. I would never have though it was so cluttered inside.
wilhelmDoes anyone know what airspace security measures there are for the Soccer World Cup starting tomorrow in South Africa?
The South African Air Force can currently field almost squat to chase and shoot down any highjacked airliners heading for a stadium.
My best info tells me that there are only 4 x JAS39 Gripen D models and 24 x BAE Hawks available for air defence…. and almost no pilots qualified to fly the Gripens.
The Cheetah C was retired 2 years ago.
One 747 plowing into a stadium packed with 80 000 fans would be a bigger disaster than 9/11.
I hope that there are some RAF Tornadob ADVs or French Mirage 2000s helping out,
The information is out there, if only you choose to seek it out.
To correct some pretty big misconceptions on this thread……
The SAAF is going to use a mix of Gripen D and Gripen C models, as well as the Hawks. The Gripens, apart from their 27mm cannon, are equipped with IRIS-T AAM. These have been operational on SAAF Gripens since 2009. They were purchased as an interim missile pending the induction of the indigineous A-Darter, which will only come into service after the world cup. Indeed the IRIS-T was purchased with one eye on the football event.
The Gripens will also act as airborne controllers for the cannon equipped Hawk.
the SAAF is also deploying the Rooivalk attack helicopter, as well as other helicopters, such as the Oryx and Agusta 109’s, as part of it’s world cup preparations.
The SAN will also deploy it’s Valour Class frigates, with it’s Umkhonto SAM’s, close to maritime cities involved in hosting matches.
All flights are going to be exceptionally strictly controlled during matches, with a national programme already practised and in place. Airspace has been divided into sectors with Gripen and Hawk coverage. Any anauthorised flight or flightplan will be pounced upon.
I have no idea why you “hope that there are some RAF Tornadob ADVs or French Mirage 2000s helping out”.
An informative site with a good forum and pictures is: http://saairforce.co.za/
Below is just one thread on the matter.
wilhelmCongrats Phil!!
The house I was raised in stood right under the landing path close to an airforce base (Ysterplaat AFB). The aircraft altitude can’t have been more than 40 or 50 meters. Dakotas, DC4, C-130, Harvards, Shackletons, Piaggio 166’s, Pumas, Alouettes, Super Frelons, Wasps, Aermacchi 326, Dassault Mirages, and the occasional museum flight Spitfire and Vampire.
I never had a chance.
wilhelmRIP.
I particularly liked his cameo in True Romance, one of my favourite pieces of cinema.
wilhelmRIP.
I particularly liked his cameo in True Romance, one of my favourite pieces of cinema.
wilhelmas for the rest of Europe, like I said, it leaves France, Germany and Sweden, the only ones with a significant aviation industry and only Sweden has shown ideas of a manned 5th gen aircraft. Germany has no will to go that path. France likes to show of its muscle but doesn’t have anything and many skip this generation all together!
The F-35 is not a Eurofighter replacement. It would be very informative if you could provide at least some evidence or an official source for this.
wilhelmThanks for the update, wilhelm. I missed your post until seeing today’s update. Looks good!
Sorry madrat, but all my stuff is still in storage. Those images are what I have to hand on my PC.
wilhelmJust some backround info on this.
This has been pretty much an open secret for years. The initial South African nukes were developed in South Africa with little help from Israel, if any. These were 6 “gun” type warheads that were deliverable by the Buccaneer. The warheads that South Africa and Israel jointly were working on was to ensure that warheads were small enough to fit on to the Jericho/RSA series missile payload bus.
A large portion of the Jericho/RSA series was funded by South Africa, who also had technical staff working on the project. The Overberg Test Range was used in testing the Jericho/RSA missiles, and Houwtec in the mountains near Cape Town was part of the testing and assembly programme. The origins of the Jericho/RSA missile lies in French technology.
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