Sorry about the thread resurrection, but does anyone know what happened to the original Mirage F1E prototype? The one with the M-53 engine. Is it still in existence?

Hmmm I tend to think the general concept of, untrained, civillians with pistols and shotguns storming military depots that are defended by military personnel with heavy weaponry is one of those things that is best left as a delusion for those who support the notion of the ‘armed citizenry’.

My beliefs on how military weapons reached circulation in those instances where civillians have engaged military forces do not include 12-gauges going up against armour, but, are rather less dramatic. My view is that, in the main, sympathisers simply passed weapons out of depots to any bands that appeared organised enough to use them. That in itself being nothing to do with the presence or absence of ‘armed citizenry’.

This thread is probably not the place to discuss that though so I’m happy to draw a line under this noting our difference of opinion!. 🙂

Not wanting to drag this out, but once again, just because the UK has not had conscription for many a decade does not mean that the ordinary civilian in other countries (ie Yugoslavia) were labouring under the same constrictions.

The fact that the populace was armed enabled them to storm barracks and equip themselves better with military guns. So their being armed in the beginning certainly helped them fight the Federal army in the end, and successfully at that. There were many instances at the beginning in Slovenia and Criatia where depots were stormed by local men who had the benefit of previous training and access to civilian weapons, the majority of which were hunting rifles and shotguns.

The events and evidence there speaks volumes for itself and this is what I was using to illustrate my disagreement with your contention that an armed populace is pointless when fighting oppression. There are many, many other examples to help illustrate this worldwide I’m sure. I just picked a notable and well known example in Europe where such an event actually took place..

On your last sentence I concur absolutely.:D

A generalisation to be sure but I did say “your armed populace will do nothing more than die in hideously large numbers in the ensuing confrontation” and as a statement goes I think that the Yugoslavia example you note proves the point quite adequately. I’d further make the observation that it wasn’t members of the general public with 12 gauges and .38 specials that caused an impact in the actions in the FRY, but, civillians with appropriated military weaponry.

I edited my original post as It was too long, but it actually addressed that which is my whole point:

Jonesy … do you know how they appropriated that military weaponry?;):dev2: (They weren’t armed with plastic picnic spoons…;))

The fact is that they fought against oppression, and had the means to do it by being armed at the beginning with hunting rifles, pistols and shotguns, allowing themselves to initially fight back and/whilst raiding military depots to arm themselves better.

Hence why I think your post was in error IMHO.:)

We also aren’t stupid enough to to think we still live in the late 19th century and that an armed populace counts for anything either. If your government keeps control of the army, while your heroic armed populace raises up to defend its freedoms, your armed populace will do nothing more than die in hideously large numbers in the ensuing confrontation. You have the army on the peoples side and it matters not a whit whether the general populace is armed or not.

Not wanting to go off topic but that’s quite a simplistic generalisation IMHO.

Yugoslavia in the early 1990’s is just one example off the top of my head that show that you are mistaken in this regard.

Well, the problem is the Sao Paulo can’t effectively operate anything besides the A-4’s.

Super Etendards.

Of which there are surplus machines due to it’s looming and ongoing retirement.

Not a plane I would choose personally, but there you go.

I’d personally go for a Rafale interceptor (at lighter weights) and Super Etendard or Skyhawk strike mix. Whatever carrier replacement comes on line in 10 to 20 years time can then take just the surviving Rafale’s over, with which they would have plenty of operating experience by then. A top up order would complete the new carriers air component and cover attrition.

Very simple really.:D

The outer wings are level, but the inner wings have anhedral.

My mistake. You’re quite correct.:o

Posted by xinhui @ CDF

J-10 Load – From the 60th Anniversary warplane show

I was not aware that the J-10 had compound sweep on it’s leading edge, or is it just the angle?

cant the chinese not rather buy a second hand nimitz-class…i think it will be decades before the boat goes afloat and being obsolete before being in active duty….:D:rolleyes:

I’m aware that you are trolling, which is not the cleverest thing to do on your second post, but what in your esteemed and professional opinion do you think is “obsolete” about the carrier, from a Chinese perspective?

Further, when in your esteemed opinion would you say is a feasible time for the Chinese navy to take delivery of this, as you put it, “second hand nimitz-class”?