wilhelmSaying this I think Taiwan is right to want and push for indigenous design and development of its military equipment!!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought it would have been interesting if Israel had of teamed up with Taiwan to continue its development of the Lavi, before Israel hoped into bed with the PRC.
A great opportunity missed?
And the J-10 may never have been?Regards
Pioneer
There was a lot of co-funding of various programmes between Taiwan, Israel and South Africa during the 1980’s, particularly in missiles. I have a little info, on supposed/alleged cruise missile developement amongst others.
I completely agree that a co-developed fighter between these three nations would have been something, as all three were looking to replace fighter/attack jets in similar weight classes over a 10 year period (in the 1990’s onwards).
The most successful was the Taiwanese Ching Kuo, which was the only one to actually make it into service. It probably benefitted the most from an external major powers input(USA)
The Israeli Lavi flew, but was cancelled. The South African Carver is still classified, and is most likely to remain so for some time, probably to save face for sanction busting design aid from major third parties. Interestingly, the head designer was alleged to have been a senior designer on the Mirage 2000 programme.
All 3 planes had very different aerodynamic layouts, although appeared to be in the same weight class.
wilhelmSo earlier Gripen’s like the C can be upgraded completely to the entire new Gripen N? That is news to me. I thought that the major redesign to accomodate extra fuel and new engine pre-cluded this?
wilhelmScooter, you don’t really know if the J-10 can compete with late block F-16’s when it comes to avionics. Neither do I. But I do not claim absolute certainty on it. Perhaps keeping an open mind on that would be a good thing.;)
Either way, these p**sing contests are irrelevant.
The fact is China has a fighter that is a quantum leap over the previous generation fighters it was making. If it is in same ballpark as the F-16, then that is a victory in itself. The F-35 appears to be some way off export service, so in the meantime the J-10 looks to be very competitive with whats out there currently.
I’m sure that China has also already given thought to the J-10 follow on/replacement…
wilhelmThanks Hyperwarp for the update. That’s quite a thrust increase. I’ve always thought a turbofanned Tu-16 with remodelled interior containing a crew rest area would make a nice maritime patrol aircraft to rival the Nimrod.
SOC, I agree that the J-10 will obviously replace a number of different types in the inventory. The L-15 seems tailor made for the light strike mission, with its relatively high power/weight ratio.
wilhelmIs the 20% thrust increase in wet, dry, or both thrust regimes?
wilhelmWow…I’m a little rusty on some of the Chinese programmes.
So the H-6K looks to be a complete overhaul of the H6/Badger. I know that it was probably one of the most useful airframes ever designed in the USSR, and was wondering when someone would do a comprehensive redesign/update.
It looks to have a glass cockpit, different, more powerful engines, extra wing hardpoints, and a redesigned nose with large radar radome. Is there anything obvious that I’ve missed? Have they gone for turbofans?
Will it be a cruise missile platform, or anti-ship missile platform?
wilhelmBelow is some updated info. Looks to be good news in that South Africa has decided to continue with indigineous BVRAAM development.
Interesting in that Denel are looking for a partner for the “back end” of the missile. I take this, along with the fact that it will “reach further than the 60km V4 R-Darter” to imply confirmation of ramjet propulsion. Missile name is T-Darter.
Denel conceptualises new missile
BY LEON ENGELBRECHT , ITWEB SENIOR WRITER[ Johannesburg, 14 April 2008 ] – Denel Dynamics, the smart weapons division of the state arms maker, is conceptualising a new high-performance radar-guided missile that, if it comes to fruition, will provide SA’s fleet of Gripen advanced light fighter aircraft its main punch.
The advanced weapon will also have substantial export potential and could gain the country billions of rand in foreign exchange in addition to boosting the local ICT skills and know-how base.
The missile is known as the T Darter and is being designed to replace the R Darter (Radar Darter) currently in service with the SA Air Force (SAAF), where it is known as the V4. Cabinet, in 2003, decided to retire the V4 when the Cheetah fighter jet was withdrawn from service as the missile contained Israeli technology and required continued assistance from that country to remain operational.
Denel Dynamics CEO Jan Wessels says the T Darter will join their A Darter, currently under joint development with Brazil, under the wings of the Gripen, which has just started entering service with the SAAF. Last month SAAF started phasing out the Cheetah and the V4.
SA is the only member of the Non-Aligned Movement, other than India, that can design and build missiles in this class, called the beyond visual range category in military circles.
“T Darter is a concept radar-guided missile,” Wessels says. “We are [proposing to use] some of our existing technologies and [are] looking for partners for the rest. We will typically provide the nose of this missile, which is the radar and are looking for a partner for the ‘back end’,” he says.
Other than the radar, the ‘front end’ also includes a number of proprietary processors that guide the weapon to its intended target at ranges that can extend to over 60km – the striking distance of the V4.
“Our next product is the A Darter, also an air-to-air missile. It is a co-development project between South Africa and Brazil. Engineers from both countries are working together on the project on Denel Dynamics’ premises (at Irene, just south of Pretoria).”
Wessels says, although Denel Dynamics is an anomaly as a result of the politics of the 1970s, it represents a unique high-end ICT capability.
“Many other countries want to be in this position, but don’t have the proven capability. We have the proven capability, but don’t always have the market or need,” he says of the company and its product range that includes various types of missiles, smart bombs and robotic aircraft. “Our strategy is to find a match between that capability and the market.”
He adds that other than strategic imperatives, such as security of supply, the national investment in missilery has spin-off for the broader economy. Wessels says such programmes “develop technologies for SA that go beyond just the product.
It is an enabler for a whole sphere of technology and country capabilities in fields as diverse as design and simulation software, fine mechanics, electronics, aerodynamics, electro-optics, inertial sensing, drivers and controls.
“A few years ago testing was time consuming, expensive and involved extensive test flights. Now you only use a few flight tests as spot checks to make sure your simulation model is good,” Wessels says. “That way you no longer have to test as many missiles in the past.”
“If you look at the Umkhonto [a surface-to [air missile developed for the SA Navy], we probably tested ten, 15 missiles; the Americans 10 years ago would have tested 100, 150 before considering the tests as done,” Wessels explains.
“When you don’t have money you learn some tricks,” he says wryly.
wilhelmI wonder where all those noisy people are that protested against Smith and Rhodesia? I hope they are enjoying their quiet respectable middle age. They should hang their heads in shame. People are dying…
Africa has a problem with the tribal concept of the strong chief. Democracy is a foreign concept here, and the democratic veneer is awfully thin. Kenya is just another example from the last few months.
But tell that to the chattering class in the coffee shops or over their suburban dinner parties…
So, it’s now April the 14th, and still no result announced. Note that the recounts are predominantely in areas where the opposition won….
Also, don’t forget that at least 40% of Zimbabweans still voted for Mugabe…… even as they starve.
wilhelmI wonder where all those noisy people are that protested against Smith and Rhodesia? I hope they are enjoying their quiet respectable middle age. They should hang their heads in shame. People are dying…
Africa has a problem with the tribal concept of the strong chief. Democracy is a foreign concept here, and the democratic veneer is awfully thin. Kenya is just another example from the last few months.
But tell that to the chattering class in the coffee shops or over their suburban dinner parties…
So, it’s now April the 14th, and still no result announced. Note that the recounts are predominantely in areas where the opposition won….
Also, don’t forget that at least 40% of Zimbabweans still voted for Mugabe…… even as they starve.
wilhelmHanna Reitsch, anyone? Holder of several international gliding records, and if memory serves flew everything from the Fa61 helicopter, through the He111Z and Me323, to the Me163 Komet. Shame about the Nazi connections of course, but undoubtedly an outstanding aviatrix.
Also not forgetting epic flight into Berlin whilst that city was basically being destroyed. She flew/ or tested an incredible range of aircraft, some of which were very new in concept. Helicopters, jet/rocket interceptors, six engined transport planes et al!
wilhelmI have some detail on various crash boats and HDML operated in South Africa in the Second World War. I think they started off with British boats powered by Merlins, which thereafter were in short supply due to the Battle of Britain. Thorneycroft or The British Power Boat Company come to mind. Thereafter, a contract was placed with an American company for crash boats, using the Brit boats as a model or benchmark. I’ll find out tonight and post some info tomorrow…
wilhelmI have some detail on various crash boats and HDML operated in South Africa in the Second World War. I think they started off with British boats powered by Merlins, which thereafter were in short supply due to the Battle of Britain. Thorneycroft or The British Power Boat Company come to mind. Thereafter, a contract was placed with an American company for crash boats, using the Brit boats as a model or benchmark. I’ll find out tonight and post some info tomorrow…
wilhelmThe R35-300 engine tech is …… tech of its own time. Could it not have taken advantage of the new and improved tech of AL-31 as MIG-27??
The R-35 turbojet is actually a very good engine for an interceptor, hence Garrys comment that for the Mig-23 (interceptor) it is still a powerful and optimal engine. The Al-31 would be of most benefit to the Mig 27/23 strike variants, bestowing extra range and thrust over the R-29.
wilhelmI wonder if any MUPSOW tech is in the Ra’ad, engine included? There was a lot of business conducted in the late 1990’s between the two countries.
wilhelmWow, interesting pictures. Thanks. Perhaps the re-engine upgrade would work for the Mig-27 and Mig-23 grounf attack/strike variants better than the Interceptor Mig-23M. The K-35 seems tailor made for the intercept mission.
Sign In
