Not at all, I am well aware of the mistakes made by the U.S. and know the price that family and friend have paid serving abroad in a conflict without end.

None of what I posted is incorrect. I see some Russian posters blinded by their own propaganda blitz, readily swallowing any negative story about the west, and parroting the state propaganda machine no matter how outrageous the lie. In truth, it is not due to any anti-Russian bias that I am engaged in what I know will be a pointless discussion with some of you. So, in essence, you are both claiming that the media and governments of all the nations listed, including your nominal ally of India, are lying about the this?

It is the opposite, I don’t, and the majority of educated Americans did not view Russia as an adversary (at least until very recently). Hence the disbelief at reading the state media stories generated in Russia about the U.S.

I can see why the US State Dept, and even you, are so out of your depth…
Let me help:

I’m not Russian. None of my family are either. Nor my friends. None of us can speak or understand Russian. I’m from Western Europe, with English as my home language. I’ve briefly befriended one Russian in my entire life.
Try again.

EDIT: Oh, and your sentence “know the price that family and friend have paid serving abroad in a conflict without end.” really should be re-read and pondered a bit by you. I’m certainly not pooh-poohing anybodies price, but rather the “without end” bit should be a bit of clue about things, don’t you think?

Bellingcat????
Lol….it’s amazing anybody still quotes or takes them seriously. Some basic research about them, and the very first word in the thread title is in order.

There are a lot of lies being told.

On the BBC website there is a video of a Syrian saying it was helicopters dropping barrel bombs!
(“barrel bomb” has to be somehow included in any statement by politicians as if by script ; -)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37430824

Make up your mind….USA said it was 2 SU-24! (pretty hard to confuse with helicopters dropping barrel bombs remember!)…..the UN has now back-tracked and say it was not sure if it was an air raid (or was it by the moderate terrorists moving round the convoy in their state department and Saudi funded Nissan Hi-Lux SUVs.

The chemical gas attack in 2013 was by “moderates” terrorists on civilians using shells supplied by Saudi intelligence (Prince Bandar is off the scene now) and this was supposed to be the excuse to start bombing Assad……the bombing was thankfully stopped by a vote in the UK Parliament in 2013 and it is clear by law we should not be in Syria unless by invitation by the government (French, US, UK special forces been there for years).

Latest news is Kerry is asking for a no-fly zone…..this will aid the moderate terrorists know as ISIS, Al Quaeda affiliates Al Nusra!….they are the guys who ate raw human hearts and livers and whose chief was photographed with McCain (Al Nusra has now changed its name to Jabhat Fateh Al Sham to pretend not to be Al Nusra anymore and be more acceptable to Western media and not be on the naughty list now that Nusra is proscribed as a terrorist group!).

The people responsible for this mess are the Western politicians should be indicted (they can be done at any time, even if out of office) and sent to trial as war criminals in the International Criminal Court for prosecuting an illegal war against a sovereign country. How many other leaders don’t we like because they repress their people and are not democratic like the Saudis and Gulf monarchies?….why don’t we bomb them instead? The reason is clear why not: because it is illegal under international law.

They continue to allow more jihadis and weapons to be pumped into Syria to stir up and stoke the fires on behalf of Saudi and Qatar (who are Wahhabis
(who are Sunni) and who hate Assad’s Alawite sect (who are Shia)…..these two sects of Islam broke apart 1400 years ago, bit like Protestants and Catholics but a a lot worse (ISIS are Wahhabis)…..it is the Wahhabi Saudis and Qataris who are paying the money to arm and feed support the moderate terrorists (ISIS and Nusra).

Turkey and Jordan joined in in this little party and provided training grounds (also in Eastern Europe) and entry points for thousands of non-Syrian Jihadist
to enter Syria….King of Jordan has little choice as not a rich country (his dad King Hussein only took $1m a year from the CIA…..I am not making any
judgement or saying if good or bad (the alternatives could be much worse) because the Jordanians are in the pocket of the Saudis and need Western
support for his monarchy so he has to toe the line.

About Erdogan nothing more need be said, but he facilitated the ingress and support of thousands of jihadis into Syria and the blow back and payback
will be a b1tch (just as it will be for the Israelis supporting the Jihadis fighting Assad).

The Israelis feared Hafez Assad (Bashar’s father) and getting rid of Syria’s strategic weapon of last resort, its Chemical arsenal was a win for them…..
but they are mistaken in stoking up chaos and giving support to the rebels on the basis if they are weakening the regime and if they are killing each
other it’s long term good for Israel….absolutely not: Israel nursing (pun not intended) Al Nursa and treating ISIS fighters to go back and stir it up more
in Syria does and will not help calm down the situation!

These are the same politicians by fighting an illegal war under international law who have caused millions of people to leave the war area as refugees and
cause huge problems in Europe as a result of the massive refugee influx caused by that war. Many of us warned years ago about the dangers of western intelligence agencies sending jihadis to fight in Syria because they will use the butchery skills they learn when they come back to Europe and cause blowback
that will cause unnecessary hurt to people here (simple common sense) but Langley et al knows best (even if against the law and simple common sense)
and unfortunately we have all seen the consequences of allowing and facilitating through intelligence agencies jihadis to go to Syria to fight an illegal war.

Who gave permission for these intelligence agencies to break the law (forget international law, I’m talking about say the UK parliament voting to expressly
forbid an attack on Syria) and stir up trouble in Syria?

Those politicians (nominally) in charge of those agencies responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands because they are playing a dirty game to get rid of Bashar Assad, a medical doctor (trained as an ophthalmologist in London)…the pro western Assad and his wife have been pictured having dinner with Kerry and his wife…..Assad was a quiet and reserved man who never wanted to go into politics but was groomed to take over after the death in a car accident of his elder brother Bassel.

The Alawites are a secular, cultured and urbane people who protected minorities like the Yazidis, an ancient people who were there before Christ, as well
as the remnants of the earliest Christian people who had been there for 2,000 years…..an oasis of secular calm in an area riven with religious extremists.
The repressive apparatus of the Baathist regime put in place by his father Hafez Assad remained (Assad cannot dismantle it because of deep state vested
interests and by doing so now will play into the hands of ISIS and their masters the Saudis) and was the means to keep the minority Alawite sect in power
…..this is needs to be resolved by the Syrians themselves and not by others stirring things up for their own ends.

The western politicians who have caused this don’t give a monkeys about the Syrian (or any other people) (they will pay at elections for causing this mistake, (as big mistake as Iraq) and are using them to carry out the bidding of the Saudis and now there is now also a cold-war dimension where a proxy war is being played out by deep state USA agencies against the Russians….again to the cost of the ordinary Syrian people there who are thought to be expendable and collateral damage after messing up a once-okay-ish country…..if they had to go and fight themselves instead of sending cannon fodder out there we wouldn’t
have a repeat of the mistakes of Iraq and Libya….will they never learn?

Gaddafi, while a tyrant, was in charge of a tiny working country with no slums, free medical care and education (look at it now) did say if you get rid of me
and there will be thousands trying to cross the Mediterranean which is what is happening now.

The Syrian secret police (among other similar dodgy countries) was good enough for the CIA to go and kidnap people secretly (so-called rendition) and hand over them over to the Syrians to torture (CIA couldn’t do the torture in America in case it got out and they got indicted for breaking US law and lost their jobs and go to jail for many years)…….funny after many years of using the Syrian secret police to torture kidnapped people (so-called secret rendition) how certain people who now want to get rid of Assad now say the Syrians are now no longer that good enough (to hand over CIA prisoners to torture).

Very good post.
It is baffling that some people can’t see the wood for the trees. Maybe they’re just good, easy, non-discerning consumers.
It has been openly stated from the beginning years ago that this was always about toppling the Syrian govt. The British electorate were clear in ending Camerons ambitions to go full in….yet we now have acknowledged British special forces inside Syria. Somebody should be hauled in front of a court of law for that and prosecuted.

There have also been previous and current reports from US special forces (both past and present serving) who have disclosed extreme distaste about the type of bloodthirsty zealots they are required to train and equip by order from above. The standing joke is that there are very few “moderate” terrorists, if at all. The well-documented wholesale desertion of FSA members to ISIS when the need arises illustrates this, as well as the frankly pathetic attempts to simply rename some pretty disgusting terrorist groups as a way of pretending they aren’t who they really are.
Everytime there is a chance of the govt forces wrapping up major operations, the screeching from our politicians for ceasefires reaches a crescendo. You can set your watch on a plethora of BBC articles on the topic being issued at the same time.

It does appear though that people are sitting up and taking notice, and starting to question and see through the BS that is being fed to them. A cursory viewing of the rubbish and mental gymnastics coming out of the State Department these days is all one needs to know. The entire fabricated “fairytale” BS has been unravelling for a long while already.

The International Court of Justice is a farce, by the way. Always has been. It’s where we prosecute the “others”, not our politicians from the west.
Tony Bliar and George Bush, with hundreds of thousands of deaths on their hands have nothing to fear…and the current crop with their elbows deep in the blood of hundreds of thousands of Syrians aren’t losing any sleep. You get the feeling that the Saudi or Wahabbi pockets are too deep and tempting for them.
It’s actually quite disgusting.

Regardless of what actually happened, you wouldn’t believe it anyway, going by your multiple, deeply xenophobic anti-everything-Russian stance here and in other forums, such as the now almost dead Tanknet.
We get it already. You hate Russia.

The timing of this incident is extremely convenient for certain entities….

As I understand it: Wing Loading

Although the Jag was designed for fairly short take off from not perfect strips (hence the beefiest undercarriage West of the Iron Curtain) in practice the high wing loading (for stability at low level) made landing and take off from flat tops a tricky proposition with very little margin for error

I was just about to post this same thing.
Everything I’ve seen shows the Jaguar M to have the basic same wing area as the vanilla Jaguar.
Couple this to the fact that the Jaguar already had a higher wing loading than the Super Etendard, and the fact that the Jaguar M had a beefed up airframe for carrier operations, which meant it would have been heavier still than the vanilla Jaguar.
As far as I’m aware, the Jaguar M was tested off a carrier, where some handling and throttle issues came to the fore. Add that, as said by other posters, to the fact that it would be more expensive than the Super Etendard, and I suppose that was the reason it died.
So although the Jaguar M would most likely have been a successful carrier aircraft, I suppose the Super Etendard was probably the correct choice between the two. It did give the Aeronavale almost 30 years of carrier borne service.

Personally though, I think that Dassault should really have pushed their proposed Mirage F1M carrier-variant a bit harder, albeit they might possibly have had to wait an extra year or so for it.

None of this has anything to do with the PAK-FA, or this thread.

But the creeps with cameras who photograph every bit of interesting hardware at every defence show from every possible angle are usually Chinese. When I was much younger, they were usually Russian.

Yes of course. It’s always the dirty foreigner who “usually” spies. Fairplay, cricket, and all those other silly cliches…

Can we get back on topic now? This is the Chinese air power thread, not a thread to hang out personal pet hates.

China has made giant strides in recent decades, but in relation to the defence links mentioned, they did have a helping hand in many projects. As someone said, the defence ties between China and Russia go deeper than is often apparent.
This is not to belittle China…indeed, it is a sensible approach to things, and enabled a leap forward (excuse the pun) in certain sectors. And why would they not?
At present and looking ahead, the Chinese aviation industry will probably need less and less of that kind of help as they move forward with designs that will be more and more their own, as indeed there already are, commensurate with the large amounts of graduates and R&D funding at their disposal.

There is now a vast reservoir of experience …designers, engineers and technicians who have now cut their teeth on the array of projects that have come to fruition over the last two decades. They will definitely build on that.

what i have said is true…..also they put words in my mouth.

Nonsense. It isn’t true at all. In fact, your post is completely untrue. Here is what you posted:

Russia has not designed any modern cargo aircraft in over 40 years. everything is still relying on the il76 which is the same era as the c-141 from the 50s!

Neither the C-141 nor the Il-76 “are from the 50’s”. It is mystifying why on earth anybody would make such a silly statement on an aviation website.
You are wrong by two decades in the case of the one aircraft.
But then, you have history about making wild and innaccurate statements such as these. Among others, I recall when you tried to claim the HAL Tejas LCA had a higher wingloading than the F-20 Tigershark.

But let me guess….”they’re” putting words into you mouth again, or hacking your keyboard, right?