Mmrmalaya, the Apache, predecessor of the Storm Shadow is an anti-runway weapon, the abandon of such category of weapon was more the result of the land mine and cluster bomb ban and of a shift in priority than of a lack of interest.
Even before the G1 war there was many projects about gliding/ toss bombing canisters with anti runway/cluster payloads, they were in the end skipped in favor of developing propelled cruise ones.
And the first one to enter in liberated Deir El Zour was…
… A L-39!!!!!
And the first vehicle to enter Deir el Zour was…
…a L-39!!!!
Excuse me but what relation have a TLAM-D with warplanes, exactly?
@TomcatVIP
regarding #28
also on this you like to win easy, full deltas are notoriously plane that are optimized to high quote high speed.
Now certainly FBW (another feature that entered first time in european air force thank to the Tornado) and canards can help into expanding the flight envelope but one thing is to be able to fly at certain quotes and regimes, another is to made it confortably and in a way that is militarly convenient.
Now, no one want here to deny F-35 capabilities in the A2G role, let be sure that we wouldn’t have accepted him as a Tornado substitute if our AF wouldn’t has been more than confident of its capabilities on such a field but just remind how we are talking about a plane of the late seventies/early eighties compared to one of the late 2K and 10.
And still some capabilities that the Tornado actually assure would not be taken over by the same F-35 but transferred to the Typhoon or to the new UAV 2025.
@TomcatVIP
You have to remember how all the discussion sprang forth: Vnomad called the Tornado Anachronistical, I replied that it entered service in 1979, so there were nothing of that in such times.
Discussion kept on, even if I tried to close it saying it could at maximum be conceded that it aged fast not that it aged quite fast, not that it was an anacrhronism but it kept on at the point to transfer the discussion on a dedicate thread, so we are still discussing.
So, you are right, we are in the 2017 now and about forty years after its own introduction in service Tornado is still operating with success, something that when it entered in service no one envisaged for sure, given the substitution cycle of planes at its own time.
No one are saying there that we ought to keep it for another twenty years or like so, just that the substitute for it is a little late it seems but this seems to be a common destiny to all major players nowadays.
@Vnomad
And that’s without going into the threat from enemy fighters. Modern terrain following radars can help you go lower but modern radars can filter out ground clutter even more effectively.
Let’s define modern please, we are talking about planes (both Tornado than teen fighters than mirages or Jaguar) of the Cold war era with no RCS at all, so the only way they ALL hadto reduce vulnerability to enemy radars was to fly low and fast.
@TomcatVIP
Didn’t understand to what plane are you referring there given than Tornado has operated in the first gulf War at medium altitude using Pawevay and actually is using Jdams and launching stand off cruise missile without showing any drawback in this type of use, at the contrary it seems to be universally praised also now for its versatility.
The fact that a plane was optimized for a certain regime or mission didn’t mean it cannot be efficient and in case of swept wing planes it usually happen so, even confortable in all other also.
Plus obviously add brimstones, RECCELITE pods and in the ECR version real Wild Weasel capability instead of just self defense.
And last but not least it excels in short take off and landing performances, being the only bisonic plane with thrust reverter AFAIK.
And Stealth comes cheaper? :highly_amused::highly_amused::highly_amused::highly_amused::highly_amused::highly_amused::highly_amused:
Again please, how much costed F-117, B-2 and F-22A? Or are you referring to the still not in service F-35 i.e. the plane that after more then 40 years would substitute it in both Uk than It?
Man, when they would enter in real service there would be more than 40 years between the two, applying the same time span backward at the date of Tornado introduction you will found that our most recent (and absolutely excellent, by the way) planes at that time were motorized by DB605 engines!
Ok , we are still affectionate to them but after all this time we will surely allow them to pass forward and get a very well earned rest.
Yes but there we are talking about first gulf war, a conflict in which just the 8% of mission were made using guided ordnances, let’s image stand off ones.
Actual Storm Shadow/Apache/kept350 were in fact developed as direct descendants of the JP233/MW1/Durandal so let’s say that the eventual problem in using such kind of weapon was well know and substitutes were already sought when the Gulf War started.
Cluster and land mines conventions and the shift of priorities after the collapse of WP led however to a redesig of such weaponry toward carring a single warhead instead of the multiple payload they were initially designed for.
Anti-runway mission was always considered as of primary importance during the Cold War above all by European NATO members that developed a series of dedicated weaponries for it.
One of those, the Matra Durandal was acquired by the same USAF in the eighties and used on F-111 and surprise, surprise by the F-15E itself.
Naturally in the same historical perspective you have to consider how also toss bombing and terrain following approach were considered as a tentative form of respectively stand off weaponry and stealth approach to counter the heavy WP air defence systems, obviously utilizing the available technologies of the time.
@ Scar
T/220 by NPK SPP
KAWAAAIIIIII!!!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]255537[/ATTACH]
@JangBoGo
Without going in a tirade like Haavarla , I would say that a post like your show the classical syndrome of what I use to call JDAMiotism i.e. the false perception of what is the role of tactical aviation following the mass introduction of satellite guided PGMs.
When you wrote something like this:
With hardly 30 fixed winged aircrafts at the disposal to service the entire Syrian theatre and 8 x dumb bombs on a normal basis is not going to cut it. Theoretically, even if 30 aircraft are airborne at a time, it brings to the table ordnance only enough for 240 targets over the entire Syria theatre. Then for the next 2-3 hours its going to be without any air support.
You are in fact assuming that there are hundreds of predetermined target every day in the whole Syria theater that have to be engaged at the same moment.
It was never like so, Intrnational coalition has much more attak planes appointed to missions in both Syria than Iraq but passed much of its own time engaging an average of 5-10 targets a day for a pair of years on a row until recent times, when having secured themselves a real land force in the form of YPG/SDF (and using real attack planes like A-10 starting from Incirklik, not F-16 et similia starting from Qatar) has finally begun to generate a not ludicrous number of air attacks.
Just as a practical example, let’s take this reports referring to the same day (31 of August) in the last 3 years.
http://www.inherentresolve.mil/Portals/14/Documents/Strike%20Releases/2015/09Sept/20150901%20Strike%20Release%20final.pdf?ver=2017-01-13-131154-547
http://www.inherentresolve.mil/Portals/14/Documents/Strike%20Releases/2016/08%20August/20160801%20Strike%20Release%20Final.pdf?ver=2017-01-13-131341-420
http://www.inherentresolve.mil/Portals/14/Documents/Strike%20Releases/2017/09September/20170901%20Strike%20Release.pdf?ver=2017-09-01-084208-477
Did you see the difference, not just in absolute numbers but in the relative concentration of strikes between the battlefield zone and the rest of the territory?
I can however assure you than the most of the other dates I have cross-checked in such a way follow the same pattern, with the good share of targeting referring to front loaders, excavators, cranes and fuel stations dubbed as military targets included: you always get a spike in the number of raids only when a major infighting is taking place like actually happening in Raqqah.
Just note than however when a similar occurrence i.e. a large group of enemy combatant in a concentrated place happen on the russian side their own planes goes out like that:
A configuration seen actually only in fighting around Palmyra, East Aleppo and recently Sukhnah where their
enemies are making a desperate stand instead of just resisting until tactically convenient.
Usually they are however utilized as tactical planes, not like B-17 in disguise, with a more limited load ( relatively to the usually huge maximum they can carry) you noted.
The idea is to have always a pair of plane flying near to the various fronts in which Syrian troops are engaging combat (Syria is quite small thanking God) with others in the base ready to take off in a few minutes, so than when the need would arise or suitable targets are discovered the ones already in flight engage them while the other take off to take their place so to never leave the troops without an available air support.
There are several flicks of planes landing with still a part of the payload on, sometimes in an asimmetrical load still on, sign that they were out in such a type of “free mission” and has not engaged enough target to deplete the full load.
Even so, the total numbers of engagements of not just the RuAF but also of SyaAF and the (actually not more so) tiny IqAF are however always been until the last year, well superior to the ones of the coalition despite the huge difference of the numbers involved.
To explain it in a simple way, the flaw of the JDAMization is to consider the number of targets as always constant, just eventually to be discovered by drones if hidden, when instead they are in the case of guerrilla organizations almost exclusively depending by the tactical situation.
So the coalition kept on trying to conduct a campaign of strategical bombing in a theatre and against an enemy that just is not quite vulnerable to such type of infrastructural damages nor it offerWHEN NOT PRESSED BY ENEMY LAND FORCES
enough type of available tactical targets.
Now, they also have a sort of “boot in the ground” and finally also them can get their share of long-begged targets.
My post was a joke obviously, not your.
I was convinced that you referring to it being paranoia and i missed that you were referring to a possible cause of the hipoxia problem.
It should have been obvious that it was a joke , Spudman, no need to give it a serious reply.
Idem for the Paranoia issue, Tomcat, let be sure that I had a real suspect about a serious issue or about a covering up I would have used a completely different tone than that.
Last altitude flight restrictions lifted at Luke without root cause found:
“The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese.” …but all five pilots get hypoxia for free.
AKA “Too big to breath”.
@mrmalaya
also because it was stated that all Eu major player are actually well deep in the MALE 2025 project, so something very concrete would be available in a reasonable time.
Strange that an usually rational and competent poster like TomcatVIP seems sometime to be felt head-on in such a mood also.
Be in every case get sure it wouldn’t have the SVP-24 on board!:angel: