MarcellogoAgain , kudos to all .
@FBW
A civil discussion is a great thing, so it always necessary to have it as they are the ones that help exchange ideas and point of view, so to increase our own level of knowledge instead of quarreling all time.
When I praised both Haavarla than bring_it_on it was for their ability of setting the tone of the discussion in such a way and in the same time to provide a clear exposition of their ideas.
@bring-it-on
your response#1542 is a clear example of what I have said
C3&I: concise, clear, courteous & informative. And fair when you describe the AN/APG-82 for what it i.e. the coupling of the processor of AN/APG-79 and the antenna of AN/APG-63V3.
IMHO this can be because the -79 i.e. the radar of the SuperHornet has a series of built-in A2G modes that the -63V3 designed the air superiority F-15C fighter actually lack, more than for a decise increase in performances.
Your opinion about this?
@ hopsalot
The F-15E is a multi-role fighter that is an awfully formidable adversary air to air. (and is most certainly used in both roles by its various recent/ongoing buyers) The Su-34 is not an accurate comparison.
The F-15E is classified like a strike fighter not as a multirole (also because this designation usually indicate the bottom part of the hi/lo mix in american designation system, something that the Strike Eagle surely isn’t) for what I know.
And it is not usually utilized in air to air roles.
It has good capability of self defense, being able to carry a consistent number of A2A in addition to its own main payload but they are almost always escorted by other planes when they go on mission.
And the Su-34 operate in the same exact way: it’s surely much more specialized than the Su-30 (i.e the direct operative counterpart of the F-15E outside Russia), surely has more drag and a lesser T/W ratio but it share the same excellent handling performances of the rest of the Flanker family, and can surely self defend itself when in mission: the fact that it is classified as a Light bomber has more to do with the russian military designation system than to any similarity between its own modus operandi with the one of Fencers or Backfires (like the F-15E has when compared to the FB-111) .
Differently from the F-15E, it was also proposed a direct utilization of it in a specific A2A mission: long range patrol over the Artic sea thanks to its formidable inner fuel load but it was AFAIK put on hold because the extremely specialized Mig-31B offer a much more practical answer to this need.
To put and end at it, all the actual Flanker family members are described as perfectly capable to operate in both type of missions by both Sukhoi than the Russian MoD, just the more or the less specialized in one role or in the other.
back @FBW
To summarize, when talking about the exercises where the F-15E is representing an advanced threat, it has the performance to do so at those transonic speeds that most exercises representing likely combat scenarios take place. It would not be able to accurately represent an Su-35S at slow speeds (or exactly match turn rates), nor a Typhoon at supersonic speeds (for example). The areas where the Su-35S would be greatly superior to the F-15E are in parts of the flight envelope unlikely to be a factor in exercises like Atlantic Trident. It is the analogous capability as a weapon system that matters.
You summarized it well from your side of the discussion, so let’s me say that I for the most agree with a conclusion like such, maybe seeing it in the opposite sense: the F-15E can replicate a quite good portion of the performances of a Su-34 or even more of a Su-30MKI and it would surely still be capable to act as a placeholder of more A2A oriented Flankers models but in this case I would take F-15C or Typhoon instead for a more faithful representation.
My initial affirmation was in this strict sense, not a way to undermine any given plane, just to keep in mind the diverse specialization of them, instead of merging them in an uniform “multirole” fog.
And I will however still put the Su-35, the F-22 and in future the PAK-FA or even the J-20 in just another league the same.
MarcellogoFirst thing, let me express my own satisfaction for the good level this thread has achieved, above all when compared with the precedent ones on the same argument (the F-35.
The comparison between the SU-35 and F-15E, usually a very shaken ground for this forum have instead there been taken very seriously and in a good and constructive spirit without degenerating as usually happened in some sort of a bitchfest or in what I call a reproductive male organ measurement context.
Initial contribution of Bring-it-on and Haavarla set a very high standard and everyone there with some exceptions (guess who) proved able to walk this way.
So let me reply to Mig-31b about the comparison between the two so to close the circle, hoping not to spoil everything.
First of all, comparing the performance of the F-15E with the Su-34 instead of the Su-35 was not intended on my part as a way to devaluate it, as i consider the Su-34 as an hell of a dedicated Strike fighter, so comparing a plane that flew in 1986 , derived by a previous one that entered in service ten years earlier with it is in my own eyes a praise, not a critic.
Said so. the F-15E is a strike plane itself, with CFT on its performances get a serious degradation when compared to a clean F-15D, more drag, way less reduced maximum speed (I think that something have been posted about it being limited to M 1,6/1,7 with them on), a way greater wing load ratio and so on.
Now, I have never heard of an F-15E going around without its CFT, also because their A2G pylons are connected to them, so I just assume that even in those exercises it went in its standard configuration.
Obviously, if someone has proof of the contrary, absolutely welcomed.
Still, even a F-15C has several issues in confronting with a baseline Flanker when it came to aerial combat and surely the Su-35 is just another league when compared to a Su-27 also, not just to American 4 gen hardware.
IMHO even for a Typhoon i.e. the best Western 4,5 gen planes when it came to aerial combat would have a very hard task to cope with the 3D TVC ecquipped Su-35S, so let’s image a standard configuration F-15E.
About the radar: someone has data about of the AN/APG-82 or almost of the An/APG_79 on whose processor it is based on?
Because I have tried and found none.
So, given that we have the ones about the Irbis we could made a precise comparison between them, not just say that one is better than the other just because have a different type of antenna.
Obviously, that are just what I would have said to justify my initial affirmation.
Not pretending to compete with the above cited Masters in their own field of expertise.
Allow me in the end just one direct reply:
@ Mig-31m
What stop an F-15 pilot from playing in the vertical instead of the horizontal?
You mean against a 4,5 (or 5) gen plane?
The sheer lack of suicidal intention: this is precisely their own home turf, even an underpowered F/A-18 would trash it in this game.
Marcellogo@ Levsha
F-15SG is not in service in the US military.
@Mig-31b
Mig-29 is probably on another league compared to T-38
This one is a serious candidate for the “Understatement of century awards” :angel:=Irony
F-15E is perfectly equal or even better than Su-35
IMHO absolutely not, so given than this is a discussion forum let’s do like this: once I have an hint that someone beside us is interested in this thing I would say you why i have this opinion and you would say me the reason because you think the contrary, not just made an one line post illustrating your own belief.
MarcellogoFBW. you have to understand that when you try to made all your post in a thread in a way that would avoid any excessive critics or to start some bitchfest (and believe me , for a not native speaker it is long and tiresome effort) and you end up with someone that get th impression of you holding up the real contrary of your own thinking YOU surely get frustrated and fall in a red haze.
Ok, now let me just sum up my own position so to keep it running: actual multinational exercises were focused in studying the integration of the different asset making up the first combat line of the nations taking part to them, this was made putting them together in the blue side and confronting them with a red side made up by planes from an ad hoc agressor squadron playing the part of the Red Side.
That squadron was made by planes of precedent generations and they were supposed to be placeholder for Russian made fighters. (the T-38 taking the role of a MiG 29 is not at all credible IMHO, the F-15E can imitate a Su-34 but a Su-35 is just another league).
I am absolutely OK with this and consider it a mature approach to th actual situation.
Also because the result is absolutely positive for my own country air force as it clearly show how the plane of our actual and future first line not just can operate together but can do it in a sinergic way i.e. so to get a greater effectiveness that the one they would reach in a single type strike pack. (i have written it quite clearly in one of my post, so you must have missed it).
I would a.t.c. consider a person asking for a Battle Royale between those planes just to prove the ability of F-35 quite immature and absolutely naive about the approach than both military and government figures have showed on this matter.
I tried to express this concept in a not serious way in my reply to LOKE and in this SURELY a lot was lost on translation, even the ANGEL emoticon it seems… dunno, there is used as a sign for Ironic post, while Devil means Sarcasm.
Marcellogo@Austin
It’s just normal than in overlapping armaments programs the focus would shift between one and the other branch of an armed force, also for a question of availability of new technologies, so in their first new big one after the fall of the Soviet Union and two decades of procurement crisis they prioritized strategical deterrence and air force, now they would shift to land forces also because Armata, Kurganets and Boomerang are almost ready.
Real bad news are about the Navy: there the embargo and above all the severing of ties with Ukraine have struck deep and hard.
Your last distinction between mass and power are instead quite absurd, Russia is still one of the nations with the largest armed forces in the world.
Marcellogo@Ryan
First post:
It would have been crystal clear with Tornado already but we europeans never learn or better are very keen of put political over technical and doctrinal considerations.
Second: Yes , computer and anechoic chambers for radio emissions changed the scenery.
Also, a more realistic approach to the real point of balance between the stealth level over performances drop surely has helped a lot.
MarcellogoFBW
Maybe because in all my post I have said the same thing that you?
And in the most neutral and anodine language that I can find, and you accused me “to just confirm my personal bias” iif this is not getting persoNal, man I didn’t know what it can be.
The same about my supposed desire of having such OK Corral duel, when in ALL my post I have expressed the contrary opinion that all the focus is instead in what you suddenly discover just now i.e. the integration between actual front line planes and not between one and the other of them.
I remember I have written a post clearlyexpressing my great satisfaction for the results of it given that my own country Air Force , together with Uk is going to operate Typhoon and F-35 together…
I just permitted myself to publish a clearly ironic post (I have also erased a part of it, where I said that such a duel thing could interest just armchair generals like us and maybe the production firms) and you not just missed it completely but use it for a frantic tirade , putting your own though on my account.
So, sorry for being Human and sometimes reacting on the spur of the moment but yes, you totally misunderstood me.
Marcellogo@ FBW
and just to clear better the concept:
Maybe precisely for the reason you cited or for its real contrary: no one want to put him/herself (many Nato MoD are actually women) in the position of being forced to admit that the money spent on its latest uber-costly plane (it apply to all the whole lot) were somewhat wasted or that their own defence industry actually propone a plane that it is markedly inferior to the adversary (or than a.t.c. doesn’t offer the advantages promised for its extra cost).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony
or also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
Marcellogo@FBW
Seriously man, what have you smoked this evening?
You are putting in my mouth something that exist just in your head and that costitute EXACTLY the contrary of my ideas and evaluation: I would consider someone asking for those thing you accuse me of desiring some poor, exalted F-16net preteen sucker.
So please, you and the other from your parts.
If you are convinced that everything is fine with the F-35 ok, just quit with this paranoid behaviour of seeing in any minimal discording affirmation (that in the case neither exist because with the fact that those sort of Battle Royale are totally pointless we totally agree) a sort of blasphemy and above all STOP PUTTING the RESULT OF YOUR OWN FRUSTRATIONS IN THE MOUTH of OTHER, please.
MarcellogoIf he tried it, it was an epic fail, as I cannot get offended in any way by someone eventually showing its own bad manners or ignorance of a certain argument in a public forum as actions like these in this context contain their own punishment in themselves.
Marcellogo@Loke
I’m referring to all the exercises cited in this newly opened thread and generally all those in which the F-35 has taken part from when it was declared IOC.
In no one of this there was a direct confrontaiton between it and other plane of 4,5 or 5 gen.
Maybe precisely for the reason you cited or for its real contrary: no one want to put him/herself (many Nato MoD are actually women) in the position of being forced to admit that the money spent on its latest uber-costly plane (it apply to all the whole lot) were somewhat wasted or that their own defence industry actually propone a plane that it is markedly inferior to the adversary (or than a.t.c. doesn’t offer the advantages promised for its extra cost).:angel:
Marcellogo@ garryA
Seems me we are stuck in a vicious circle there.
It can also be that the F-15E is the best fighters of the whole world but this doesn’t change the fact that in all the exercises cited in this thread there were none in which ANY plane of the current production cycle has been put against ANY plane of the same level, only against legacy ones.
This, with all probability. because there is not any interest between the AF taking part on such multinational exercises to ascertain if the model X is better than the model Y of Z ( compared to us armchair generals and engineers or in the best of cases the producers of said planes) in a a determined type of fighting or in another when instead there is definitively one into training to get the maximum that they can with the assets at their disposal.
A proof of such is that they have not made any try to make up mixed USAF legacy/ Actual planes formation also if that is the combination that its more likely to happen in real life.
MarcellogoNow, people let’s decide what this thread is going to be: talking about Indian doubts about PAK (or allow me to say, the usual mentalconfusion they have actually about their various military programs) can surely be interesting but there is a dedicated thread for this plane + the one about InAF.
MarcellogoLOOOL not!
Friday is the day of the Islamic collective prayer i.e. the moment Muslims came all together and Mullahs and Imams can call for a “Day of Wrath”.
MarcellogoOk, this first page was in any case helpful to made a refresh to the whole matter and to remind that effort to reduce radar signal return was much more older and widespread than just the one leading to the stealth planes and that actually the greatest field of application of such technologies lies in Navies and not in Air Forces.
Now, let’s talk more about the present and future programs around the world.
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