Sea Sparrow was not alone. There were Standard Missile, Terrier and Tartar. Talos was gone in the 80ies. Ships operated in cooperation with other ships and Sea Sparrow was the choice for smaller ships.
AND that was the problem, xena , no navies in the seventies/eighties could just go with a single air to air missile sistem.
Standard and Sea Sparrow were two different categories of systems, before the introduction of vertical launchers (or the greatly enhanced Mk26 of Ticonderoga) medium range missiles had just too low rate of fire to be used for any meaningful antimissile use also.
They were instead thought to engage planes carring them and to provide cover to an entire group of ships, instead of just the one on which they are mounted on.
Nasty thing of sea skimming missiles (when compared to P-15 first series) was that they could be seen and targeted only when they are so close to the target that there was practically no differences between one of such area defence system and the Sea Sparrow/ Aspide/Crotale/Sea Wolf ones.
One would have engaged them at a greater distance but would have not been able to repeat engagement a second time before they would have reached minimum operative distance while the others would had this opportunity, almost in the case of a single missile attacking, hank to their greater rate of fire.
Of all those just the Sea Wolf was intended to have a specific antimissile use but in the Falkland war, although proving itself lethal against low flying argentinian Mirages, had not the occasion to engage Exocet so we can not have a precise idea of its own efficacy.
IMHO however, anything short of the Tor system of Udaloy’s (whose development was a royal pain) would had been not enough to this role in the eighties but they carried an hell of a Ciws also.
So if that’s the case how were the pre AEGIS destroyers expected to defend themselves from cruise missile and aircraft attacks? They would ‘ve easily overwhelmed by numbers and given the soviet missiles were big even 1 hit might sink the ship.
I remember USS stark got 2 hits still remained afloat
That was definitively a problem in the seventy-eighties, first solution was to develop ECM: the same Stix missiles that made wreak havoc in the Six Day and Indo-Pakistani 1971 war were silenced using Elettronica angular deceivers during Yom Kippur war.
Introduction of sea skimming profiles, narrow bidimensional instead than conical scan radars and ECCM restored missile effectiveness, so in the Falkland and first Gulf War (Iran vs Iraq) the Exocet but also updated Styx versions regained their deadly effectiveness.
Sea Sparrow, like other short range missile systems of the seventy/eighties was however not introduced as a primary anti-missile weapons but as anti-aircraft one to be used in those class of ships not ecquipped with the bulky 3D radars.
It happened so that after the Falkland War has showed the letality of true sea skimming missiles (and believe me, it was quite a shock) the USN decided to dismount it from Knox class ocean escort/frigates (in the pre-mk29 BPDMS configuration) and fit a Phalanx CIWS instead, while MMI i.e. the most important of the originary partners of the NATO Sea Sparrow program pulled out completely from it and went for the integrated Aspide/heavy CIWS guns/Dardo system instead.
Shah Mat.
Umayyiad Mosque liberated by Loyalist.
Yes but this possibilities became possible only with the RIM-7P, the last model of the baseline series, after the end of Cold War.
Thanks for correcting me
So the sea sparrow mk 29 launcher can target and guide how many missiles at a given time ?
You are making confusion between radars and launch system. Launch system can fire a missile every 3 second but radars can illuminate just a target.
So it’s depend from the number of radars on the different type of ships involved.
You cold obviously also fire more than a missile against a given target.
Iroquois utilized a different sistem, not classical eight cell launcher.
It was a retractabile one, like the ones for russian SA-N-8 but with a fork like, four arms pylons.
The eight cell was a quite effective sistem capable to launch a missile every 2/3 seconds.
However it’s quite limited range limited it to a SARH only mode and it had to be recharged manually.
So, my own country navy used it only in Lupo class frigates and adopted instead the similar looking but completely different Aspide/Albatross launcher combination instead featuring a automatic Riva Calzoni reload system.
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It has not dedicated illumination radars as it share the Dardo tracking systems of our CIWS (i.e. Breda 40/70mm and OTO76/62mm Super Rapido), so to allow them to be pointed to the same menace at the same time.
It was also a clever move for export as the ones that buyed one of our artillery systems (i.e. almost everyone around) had a convenience to take the Albatross also.
Let’s say that a lot of interesting arguments was just started when he passed to new ones.
The direct comparison (speed, payload, range) between the F-35 and the PAK-FA, despite the title was not made.
He was extremely sincere in highlighting the deficences of certain planes, russian also but it seems me that he was above all reassuring wiewers about the choices made by the developers and the political elites and to counter some criticism as well as excessive espectations made by not specialist.
Let’s say that a lot of interesting arguments was just started when he passed to new ones.
The direct comparison (speed, payload, range) between the F-35 and the PAK-FA, despite the title was not made.
He was extremely sincere in highlighting the deficences of certain planes, russian also but it seems me that he was above all reassuring wiewers about the choices made by the developers and the political elites and to counter some criticism as well as excessive espectations made by not specialist.
The USAF, USN, USMC have been doing CAS using F-16s, F-18s, and Harriers for years and years. Given that the F-35 offers at least as good low/slow performance (better than the F-16) and a great deal more range/endurance there is no reason to think it would struggle to perform any CAS mission.
The only area it can’t measure up to the A-10 is the huge gun, and even that is basically a red herring as even the A-10 wouldn’t expect to use it anywhere but a counter insurgency type environment.
Afaik, the marines have already done CSAR with the F-35B and it went well.
I’m not talking about the generical CAs mission almost in the quite respective significance that is sometimes given to it i.e. performing a single bombing run under the instruction of a ground controller team but a mission in support of as CSAR mission i.e. something thsat require a continuative presence in supporting on an operation that could last hour.
Amazingchichens affirm that Marines has done a CSAR, I suppose he means a simulation of the rescue of a fallen pilot not an operative action.
Because you know, my country air force has had to perform a real rescue mission in Afganistan in August 2011 and not of a single men but of a whole company of US soldiers that got struck in a gorge due to a Buffalo getting struck, the operation lasted five days and led to the loss of a spanish chinook, american send some F/A-18 and we sendour AMX and Mangusta.
It turned out that while the Hornets and Mangusta weren’t able to assure a continuative presence, our own small, atypical (no armor and just a M61 peashooter) but nevertheless truly CAS plane bwas the only one able to stay there until a new wave of the other planes came back, loitering over the zone and making a pass , even with depleted ammo to make the assailant squat down.
It seems that it was this characteristic that ultimely saved the (five ) day.
I’ve searched internet for more precise report but for the moment I have just found this one (official silence about our country overseas mission is usually deafening so no surprise about it), take it just as a proof to make sure I’m not inventing stories. http://espresso.repubblica.it/googlenews/2012/08/20/news/la-guerra-segreta-di-monti-1.45809
Now, I’m not trying to convince you, just pointing out about a suspect I have that the congress is trying to make up a taylored made evaluation centered on the actual strongpoints of a specialized CAS just to keep the A-10…
Nothing more, nothing less. Not leaning to a solution instead of the other, almost not at the holy crusade level someone has when it talks in favor or against the F-35.
Let me say, it just seems that A-10 is performing extremely well in current engagement in Syria/Iraq so I’ll still give it more than some chances to get a few more years of service.
In the same time, I expect the F-35 to operate in the low and slow department much better than the rest of current Usaf fast jets fleet so it would in the end be the best candidate for its successor as times goes by. In ther meantime, it can take the place of F-16.
P.S. AMX and A-10 operated together over Serbia just in the way Tomcat described, with outstanding results, one was heavily armed and armored, the other had updated better “data sharing” reconnoissance ecquipments.
I have seen it before vut it always refhresshing see someone both so competent, sincere and honest.
Even if something seems me to have been left along the way or just lost in translation.
Maybe MILF-31? But at 31 it is not a MILF. :angel:
😀
For apparent mental age of some poster it would be.
For what I can get from replies (no subscription, so I can’t look into) they want to evaluate it also as a support to a CSAR operation, in this case i would say that it’s just taylored up to keep the A-10.
No way to beat a CAS plane in this one, except by using something like the B-1B.
It implies staying there for hours, possibly making several low quote passes to scare enemy and make them squat down as opposing to bomb them from distance and go away.
I don’t think to be to be an excellent knowdgeable poster for what it come to aereonautical matters but i’m following Syrian conflict everyday now from the beginning, so I don’t securely need someone like Tony to tell me about all the wrongdoings, the false news, the covering for genocide, the killing of any residuate honesty, humanity and simple decency or sense of riducule that main stream media have done in covering the support Usa, Israel,France,Turkey, Quatar and above all Saudi Arabia, actually massacring Yemeni people in a deafening silence have done in the last years in favor of the same Jihadi groups that have committed 9/11.
Said so, I was the first one to tell everyone that this one is an aviation discussion thread and to leave a certain kind of sensationalistic posting in the proper forums.
So please MiG-31, if you are one of the sorry illuded people that think the USA or generally Western world have still an half of an hinch of morality ground to tell other people what to do, be welcome to do it in another place and above all STFU!
what are you trying to say?
That the single raw datas that you found in airplane performance sheets have to be put in a contest: while it seems they are uniform in reality they are not, climb speed, max velocity, g-numbers and so on are dependent from speed, quote, even air temperature as the useful and clear graphics you published show.
Now, all discussion started about someone stating that the plane X having better subsonic accelleration, other contasting it, to contribute I made the point that subsonic accelleration is not such an useful parameter except than in a case of a scramble on alarm i.e. when you have to pass from zero speed and quote to operative ones asap.
I have so published mission parameters i.e. elaborated data of an interceptor plane to show the difference between the two approaches.
So no more climb rate but time to get to
You very kindly have published a diagram i.e. a even more complete form of data refinement, I in turn further elaborated the description of the scramble mission. and made a small, quite obvious consideration about accelleration i.e. that at subsonic speed it is usually quite easy to get (almost vertical in the graphic)while in transonic and supersonic regime it tend to diminish and get flat.
Hence back to my pristine post , having a greater subsonic accelleration it means quite nothing in operative terms, transonic one is quite another matter. according to your data seems that F-35 got is also.
So we can conclude that it has got almost one of the two legs that made a good scrambler, while for the other, climb rate, still not any data.
Still I bet that even in a A2A role f-35 would not be used like so but as a long range patrol interceptor f-14/Tornado ADV style.
Right! The company that actually knows (besides USAF) what the true capability and performance of the F-35.
Ah, and the poor me that though instead that it was the one that will take all the money.