There are a number of members on this forum whose sole purpose in life, it seems, is to troll through ever thread to leave posts that are invariably taking a contrary view and argumentative. This came to my attention when, rather arrogantly, I felt I was being followed from thread to thread. However, a quick look at a few other threads quickly revealed these same people making similar posts on many threads. In my view these same people actually contributed very little original material to the forum.
Of course they have every right to express their views, no question of that, but I now have a black list and no longer respond to posts left by these members.
Personally I think some of the comments recently made on this thread are libelous and, if having no documented proof, the poster should do the decent thing and remove them himself with an apology. I have invested in 963’s future, and I am very happy to continue to do so. My only regret is that my contributions are so meagre.
Many restoration projects sit on the knife edge of funding but Dave has put his money where his mouth is and saved the aircraft and whilst there will, no doubt, be many pitfalls in the future he, Rich and the rest of the present team are the most likely group to succeed, IMHO.
The member doth protest too much, me thinks.
20 out of a total of 28 posts made on this thread since joining only six months ago, all, shall we say, derogatory.
We had debates around 795 in much more difficult situation but nothing like this.
I would suggest that some of the comments made are libelous and either evidence should be produced to substantiate them or they should be withdrawn with an apology.
It would seem fairly obvious what is going on here.
Merlin, might I suggest that you visit on a day when Rich is there he will infect you with his enthusiasm and encyclopedic knowledge about everything Shackleton. I have had the pleasure of meeting him on several occasions and knew something was badly wrong when he left.
My personal view is that if anybody is going to get a Shackleton into the air it is the present crew and they have my, regrettably, meagre support.
Last time I saw a Harrier “fly” was in 1972, off the ski ramp at Farnborough.:highly_amused:
So what are we saying here?
Bomber Command Memorial £9m5.
IBCC £10M.
How much did the 70 year remembrance events cost?
Couldn’t find a thread discussing the above. But then I did only use the forum search engine.:highly_amused:
And dare I say how much does the BBMF cost?
There is always something “better” to spend money on, if you applied that logic we would spend everything on the NHS and nothing else.
Normandy is still on my bucket list so cannot comment on the number but certainly take the point.
On the assumption that it is going to be built would it be better placed in one of our embarkation ports?
So it was me then.:apologetic:
Oh how I have missed your biting sarcasm.:D
No wonder people keep misunderstanding you, or is it me. :rolleyes:
Be interesting to see what will be posted.:highly_amused:
as a type seems to be essentially blameless.
Agreed but is not the requirement to have ejector seats functioning going to ground all Hunters eventually if cartridges are no longer available. Even if there are supplies sitting on shelves less than 6 years old, the clock is ticking.
I hope I understand what you meant TA. I would have put it more like for the industry to take stock over the next days and weeks and discuss and implement all the recommendations made by the AAIB in the hope that this will prevent such a horrific loss of life happening again.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-39105085
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/03/shoreham-air-show-disaster-final-report/
http://news.sky.com/story/pilot-errors-caused-shoreham-air-crash-report-finds-10788285
http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/story/2017-03-03/shoreham-air-disaster-final-report-published/
And a rather surprising report in the Sun
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2991054/shoreham-air-crash-disaster-report-conclusion/
The AAIB do not, of course, and quite rightly, apportion blame. Their job it to investigate EVERY aspect of any incident, including examining the “due diligence” of every party involved which in any way could have contributed to this incident. In order for the AAIB to do their job properly, and to the benefit of everybody, they cannot be compelled to give evidence of their findings in court. We discussed this earlier.
There is, of course, much to be learnt from the comprehensive details contained within the report, however, the AAIB do summarise their findings in the Conclusions.
I make no comment at this stage but I feel the the extract from the Operation Aspects section of the Conclusions “probably” explains why the maneuver was not executed successfully. I would point out that further sections of the Conclusions go on to consider the factors that resulted in such a terrible loss of life.
Extract from CONCLUSIONS
Operational Aspects
17. The minimum height loss during the downward half of a looping manoeuvre
in the Hawker Hunter is between 2,600 and 2,950 feet (including 100 ft
for instrument reading error), when flown at the values of aircraft mass
and density altitude relevant to the accident.
18. The pilot stated that he required a minimum height of 3,500 ft at the apex
of the manoeuvre to ensure that he completed it 500 ft or more above the
ground (as required by his display authorisation).
19. The aircraft achieved an apex height of approximately 2,700 ft.
20. The airspeed at the apex of the accident manoeuvre was 105±2 KIAS,
which was at the lower end of the pilot’s declared airspeed range of
100 to 150 KIAS.
21. The aircraft was lower than required at the apex because it entered the
manoeuvre below the target airspeed, because less than maximum
thrust was applied during its upward half, and because any rolling
element initiated before the aircraft reached the upward vertical would
have further reduced apex height.
22. The entry height of the manoeuvre was consistent with the 200ft minimum
height on the pilot’s DA for a Jet Provost; the apex height and speeds
on the accident manoeuvre were consistent with those flown in the Jet
Provost the previous weekend.
23. The pilot stated that he would abandon a ‘bent loop’ manoeuvre if the
minimum entry speed, or the minimum gate height at the apex, were
not achieved. He did not abandon the accident manoeuvre when these
minimums were not achieved.
24. It is possible that the pilot misread or misinterpreted speed and height
indications during the manoeuvre, or recalled those for a different aircraft
type.
25. The pilot had not previously rolled the Hawker Hunter at the low airspeed
encountered at the apex, and was not sure that a roll could be achieved
at that speed.
From Wiki (simples)
613 Squadron were in the course of converting to Lysanders at RAF Hawkinge when they flew in support of the Allied garrison in the Siege of Calais. On 26 May, along with the squadron’s Lysanders, six Hectors dive bombed German positions around Calais and on the following day, attempted to drop supplies to the troops, unaware that they had already surrendered; two Hectors were lost.[2]
(2) Owen Gordon Thetford, Aircraft of the Royal Air Force since 1918, Putnam, 1962 (p.304)
He was a Flt Lt for a small portion of it.
Yes but a VERY important part for us, he deserves the respect when talking about the part he played.
But not necessarily the same “many”. 😀
Yes agreed Moggy but no information was coming out of VTTS, pre last flight, about the options they had considered and why suggestions being made were not viable. I do not think that ruling out a location on the grounds that the site already had a Vulcan was a very valid one and very probably there was more to it than that but they didn’t say so. Very likely no organisation would be prepared to take her, like IWM or RAFM, unless she came cost free. But I feel sure that more funding support would be forthcoming if she was at DX or Cosford and the situation, that she had to come cost free, was explained. It is very similar in nature to the Air Atlantic trip to Newquay and back. Many on here could not see Newquay being viable right from the start and regrettably that is how it played out.
Obviously nothing can be guaranteed to end in hugs and puppies but XH558 needed to be somewhere where she had at least a fighting chance. Many do not see that Doncaster is that place. Before it was easy to support because there was one objective, flight, and we were kept informed of progress and where the funding was going and many were happy to take the gamble that they would be successful. VTTS should have canvassed opinions, and maybe they did behind the scenes, but even now they have not given really credible reasons why she could not have gone to DX or Cosford. If the IWM and RAFM both said absolutely not under any circumstances then why not just say so.
As I have said previously I cannot see how there could be a credible business plan with her based at Doncaster and that makes me wonder exactly what the actual plan is. But that may be the cynic in me which comes a close second to my pessimism. 😀